I LOVED her delivery of the line “don’t”. It wasn’t screamed, but it was so loaded, so full of feral warning. It was perfect.
The previews for this episode showed Elosha telling Roslin that the Exodus had been 3600 years ago. That gives the skinjobs/us 1600 years to invent robot slave labor.
There was a Centurion head on the surface too.
The 12 Lords of Kobol are the gods the Colonials currently worship. Back on Kobol there were 13 gods, but one god became jealous and demanded he be worshiped above others. The resulting conflict it the reason why the 13 tribes left Kobol. I was under the assumption that the 13th tribe went in the opposite direction from the other 12 because they followed the jealous god (whom I think is the Cylon god). If Kara’s not a Cylon then I think she’s a Lord (Lady?) of Kobol (which also means the 12 Cylon models are not the Lords of Kobol and the Lords of Kobol weren’t just mortal human rulers of Kobol later deified).
The most significant development? For the first time (far as I can recall), we see the word “frak” spelled out (in the graffito “FRAK EARTH”). So apparently I’ve been wrong in spelling it “frack” all this time, and it is indeed a four-letter word.
And which the ancient Greeks formerly worshipped. But somehow there was a temple to them in Brooklyn, suggesting that somehow the 13th-tribe Cylons either arrived back on Earth after leaving and exporting their polytheism, defeating and expelling all the native humans, or that there was a rebirth of polytheism among them after they were led astray by Jesus, Muhammad, Buddha, etc.
Because, being a Cylon, he was more perfect?
It is not at all clear why they all left. Kobol wasn’t radioactive when the fleet found it, just abandoned.
And thus is “canon” created. 
Okay, try this …
Humans (the real kind, us) did originate here on Earth after all. The early-model Cylons from Kobol came here a few thousand years ago, got the Greeks all intimidated into worshiping them just the way the Goua’uld did, and took some back to Kobol as their *own *slave labor (hah!), mythologizing their knowledge of their/our original home world along the way. Allofthis happened, Kobol became uninhabitable for a long time, everybody scattered, and the only tribe that knew Earth was real, namely the Cylons, went there. Here, they found that the humans (us) had forgotten about them, they kicked our asses using their Toaster soldiers and made us build new temples to them.
Then allofthis happened yet again except that the God-Cylons had some superweapon that destroyed all traces of human bodies while we only had a bunch of nukes. The result: “You blew it up!” etc.
But if that’s how allofit is going to happen again, then Zeus and the other gods will be here any day now, and they’ll be pretty pissed at us. Guess we better buckle up.
Totally off topic, but I object to the use of 4.13 as the numbering for this episode. “Razor” is used as a completely separate stand-alone in the DVD set, and is listed as episode 4.0 on imdb. This is logical.
Using 4.13, contrary to every single piece of evidence on major websites, is counter-productive and contrary.
We’ve seen their relationship. Quite a lot, actually. When Roslyn does something he doesn’t like, Adama does not meekly go away. No matter how stern she is with him. He doesn’t leave things for the next day. He’s pushy and he throws temper-tantrums. That is how their relationship works. We know this; they’ve shown it to us.
Except this time, the writers wanted to emphasize Dee’s death. So they changed the rules they’d established for Adama’s and Roslyn’s relationship. Which is why it is bad writing.
If we were to infer some ultra-close relationship between Adama and Dee, they would have shown it. This being a television show, and all.
They have shown the ultra-close relationship between Adama and Roslyn, even though they apparently meet almost every day, too. When she announced she was going to kill herself, he just… left the room.
Have you ever seen Roslin refuse to speak at a press conference, burn a book of prophesies before? This isn’t just a disagreement-- this situation is different. I can buy that Adama would walk away from that situation with Roslin because he agrees with her. He doesn’t think she’s wrong to stop treatments, and he can’t come up with a compelling argument to get her to change her mind. He too wishes he could just give up, lay down and die. But he can’t, so he tries to get Tigh to do it for him. That seems consistent to me.
I thought it was sorta bad acting, but the writing was just fine. Made perfect sense.
First of all, does someone have to be “ultra-close” with someone he works with every day to be very upset about her suicide? When she was his son’s wife, and when there are only 39,000 humans left in the universe? When it is discovered that Earth, the saving hope of humanity, is lost forever? And when he feels responsible for her suicide, and Roslin’s giving up, and the whole sad mess? Dee’s suicide was emblematic of what Adama perceives as his failure, and how he disappointed everyone. I think he was upset about far more than just Dee’s suicide, but her ultimate act of despair (and Roslin’s) sent him over the edge into his own despair, out to sea like the foxes.
Also, when Roslin told Adama to leave the room, she really meant it. Even Bill Adama knows when he can push and when he can’t or shouldn’t. She really wanted him gone, it wasn’t just petulance or a spat or even a difference of opinion. She was just done, and really, so was he. He just wasn’t up to fighting her because that would be hypocritical of him, after all.
But if you want to hate it and think it’s bad writing, go right ahead, of course. I have a feeling nothing I’m going to say is going to change your mind about it if you really feel that way. To me, it hung together rather well exactly because of what you’re saying. Normally, there’s no way Adama would let Roslin give up. The fact that he did this time shows just how horrible both of them feel, just how bleak and awful the situation is. The only problem I had was with Olmos’ acting, which was way over the top and a bit cringeworthy.
I agree with you that it’s better to call last night’s 4.11, but i don’t think all major websites agree with you.
To be fair, Wikipedia lists it as 4.13
So does David Weddle, who co-wrote the ep.
How does Battlestar Wiki list it? They’ve been down for me the last few days.
Indeed. I fervently hope the series resolution will explain just what happened on Kobol, because people do NOT abandon one of the few habitable planets in the known galaxy for nothing. All we were really told was some woo-woo about Kobol being the one place in the universe that God has turned his back on, where there is no resurrection or afterlife. Maybe because whatever is behind this whole EarthCylons/ Starbuck resurrection thing doesn’t work on Kobol?
I’m not that far in the thread, yet, so maybe it will be addressed.
However, Tigh has a habit of seeing blonde women he’s fucking as being Ellen…so it could still be Starbuck.
…maybe. But the fact of the matter is that the whole idea of Cylons managing resurrections seemed really new to everyone five years ago, much less two thousand.
Have we completely ruled out time travel of some kind? If Kara somehow got sent back and a base star of the Cavil’s Cylons with her…well, there you go. She is the harbinger of death.
Was it burned or just generally crusty since it’s been there a couple months?
Eh, maybe. Maybe not. I see it as generic religion-speak that in no way necessarily implies actual Cylon resurrection.
Everyone has hit a point of absolute hopelessness. Keep in mind that Adama’s next step from there was to try to push Tigh into killing him. Why bother trying to fix anything? Everyone has given up and so has he.
Anyways, we have 3 nuked civilizations - Earth, Kobol, and the Colonies. We also have 3 groups of life forms - Humans, Skinjobs, and Robots. Maybe each wiped civilization was a revolt of one type against another? Caprica would be skinjobs vs humans. Earth would be humans vs. skinjobs. Eh, that’s probably where the concept falls apart.
One last theory. Maybe religions are generally true? Humans (including Tigh, here) are actually reborn…after an FTL trip across the galaxy. Tigh was killed on Earth and it took his spirit/soul/download a couple thousand years to get to the Colonies. He was reborn there through some unknown mechanism, and then joined in life there. So, he was ‘reborn’ later. That explains the two-thousand year gap in his and the other Fab Four’s memories.
They left Kobol because, for some reason, resurrection (for humans or Cylons) doesn’t work there. Especially strong magnetic field or whatever.
-Joe
The interviews in Mahaloth’s link (thanks for that; very interesting) describe how this was the first show shot last year after the writers went on strike but before production was shut down. Basically, the writers handed off the script, and said, “See ya later, really sorry we can’t be there but you know we’re behind you, good luck,” and went to the picket lines. The director, cast, and production crew had no idea if they were about to make the very last episode of BSG ever; there was no guarantee that SciFi would be ordering a resumption of production once the strike was resolved. So they all went for broke, basically, which no doubt contributes greatly to the animal intensity of some of the performances.
I agree that it’s potentially confusing, but I don’t agree that it’s counter-productive, and I’m not doing it to be contrary, I’m doing it to be consistent. As Mahaloth notes, you can see from the interview with the writer that, according to internal show numbering, this is indeed episode 13. At the time “Razor” aired, it was made very clear by the show’s producers that they were using episodes 1 and 2 of their 22-episode commitment to make the movie; they emphasized this so the fanbase wouldn’t wonder why the 22 episodes they had so excitedly read about a few months before had somehow shrunk to 20. And as I said, during the first half of season four, fan sites looked to be split fifty-fifty between using the show’s “official” numbering and the more “sensible” scheme, but for whatever reason, that seems to have changed. I went back and forth on it, but as I looked back to previous threads, I realized that no matter which way it goes, it’s potentially confusing. Either we wind up with threads in the archive that duplicate numbers 11 and 12, which would look weird when people are searching for the discussions later, or we keep going forward with the numbering scheme already established, which has the advantage of also being supported by the show’s own production protocol. Neither was perfect; either way there has to be an explanatory disclaimer (“why are there two #11s and two #12s” vs “why are you calling it #13 when I see #11 on other sites”). Bottom line is, neither one is really right or wrong, or more right than the other one; I just elected to stick with precedent in the interest of long-term clarity, over (yes) short-term clarity but possible long-term confusion.
ETA: I’m not claiming to be perfect or anything; I mean, heck, I spaced on including the spoiler policy in the OP. (Duh.) All I’m saying is, I sort of flipped a mental coin, and went with my gut.
Also, Adama has always had to work not to get too close to the young people under his command; he feels like a father to them.
Dee was from Sagitton; this was mentioned in the episode with the homicidal doctor who didn’t like Sagittonians.
Because he, like everyone else in the fleet now believes that there is, in fact, no hope. He doesn’t argue with Rosyln because what the frak is the point? He doesn’t disagree with her.
They were close enough. She was part of his bridge crew his ex daughter in law.
Dee’s death is so upsetting to Adama because it basically confirms his own beliefs that he let down the entire fleet.
What I did think was a bit of bad writing was how the one female pilot (Racetrack maybe?) was so upset. Gaeta I can understand because he’s all sensitive and worked closely with her on the bridge. But I don’t think it was ever established that the other two were particulatly close.
I remember Dee having special access to Adama, and giving him advice, way back when she was still enlisted. He didn’t take advice from many people back then. Then he promoted her to officer and an important position bypassing a lot of more senior officers, then she married Apollo. If I recall correctly, Adama didn’t know Starbuck that well when his son Zak died, but just the fact they were planning on marriage made Adama accept her like a daughter. I can believe she was one of his soft spots.
Y’know I’ve viewed Dee’s suicide as on the same emotional playing field as that one kid who died when you were in high school. You may or may not have known them… hell, they may or may not have been good people, but somehow there’s this deep sense of shock. There’s a sense that this shouldn’t be happening which moves everyone. Regardless of whether or not they really knew her, Dee’s death should not have happened. You can’t help but respond viscerally to that.
Yes. Like levdrakon says, Adama let Dee get closer to him than his typical officer. Remember, there’s that episode early in season two, where Roslin escapes the brig and fraks off to Kobol, leaving Adama to stew in a sense of betrayal. Adama summons Dee to his quarters so he can vent at her (“It’s interesting. Betrayal has such a powerful grip on the mind. It’s almost like a python, it can squeeze out all other thought, suffocate all other emotion, until everything is dead except for the rage”). Although he makes it clear he simply wanted a silent listener, she rides over his objections and responds directly to him:
Dee: If I may say something?
Adama: Speak your mind, Dee.
Dee: I don’t think the problem is that you have been betrayed. I think it’s that you feel helpless. You were shot, you were injured, you couldn’t do anything.
Adama: Don’t make excuses for me.
Dee: And when you finally had a chance to do something…
Adama: I’m sorry I did this.
Dee: You let us down. You let us down. You made a promise, to all of us, to find Earth, to find us a home… together. It doesn’t matter what the President did, or even what Lee did, because everyday that we remain apart is a day that you’ve broken your promise.
Then he kicks her out, but even then, she doesn’t just leave; she insists on having the last word on the way out the door.
This relationship hasn’t been at the forefront of the show, but it’s definitely been there.