spogga, are you trying to get yourself tossed outta here again?
Re: Aldebaran’s most recent response:
Well, that’s what I inferred from:
Fair enough if that’s not what you meant. I was simply pointing out that if certain Christians refer to certain Muslim combatants as “terrorists”, it is more likely because of a perception that the combatants target mainly civilians, than the fact that they may be Muslim per se. Of course, the term “terrorist” tends to be thrown around rather loosely anyway.
Actually, if you woldn’t mind I’d like to hear more about the incidents where these self-professed Christians so emphatically claimed to know yours, and your mother’s, final destination. Basically, who were these people? What nationality? Did they already know you in some way? If they were complete strangers, did they target you alone or others around you? How did they (apparently) know your mother was Catholic? Did they talk about anything else, or just start telling you how you were destined for Hell, which, BTW, would be considered equally rude here as I’m sure it is wherever you are located?
The reason I ask is because I’ve been living in various hotbeds of American-style fundamentalist Christianity for the past several years, and only once in that time has anyone even attempted to pull me into one of those “have you been saved” conversations.
Interesting quote. Sure seems to imply pretty strongly that Muslims should have no religious beef with Jews or Christians.
The Gospel quote from Jesus that I’m thinking of goes something like: “No one gets to the Father [God] except through me”. I’m sure one of our resident Bible scholars can either correct me if it’s not there, or provide the exact quote if it is.
Having gone to Catholic schools as a kid, I do clearly remember the nuns teaching us that one must be baptized in order to get into heaven. In fact, that teaching was specifically the issue I had as a youngster that started me douting the veracity of my religion.
The first was chasing after doomed souls on a train, the other one stood before our eyes as a sort of pop-up doll when we came out of our hotel two days later.
They were both black people, and their language was US English. They were of course complete strangers and appraoched us.
Us meaning myself and two people who were with me. One of them is black and the other is clearly - without any doubt possible - to be defined as Arab, where I can pass for a North-EU’er who got a tan from a ski vacation.
Both approached the Arab-looking first with the question: “Can I ask you something”.
Since he nor the other one are good with English, they looked at me and so I said: “Yes please, how can I help you.”
The next sentence that came out of both was:
“Do you know Jesus”.
And there they started with their proselytizing and kept repeating like a programmed parrot that I was going to hell.
Frankly, I couldn’t believe I was listening to such arrogant crap.
I became a bit tired of that and the refusal to stop talking about hell and disappear to where ever they wanted to go… If that was out of my sight.
Yet it must be said that I had a bit more patience with the first one since he seemed to be really convinced (and said so) that he was a prophet of God.
I could get rid of him with the help of a passing train employe (he was in the wrong class…heheheh…)
So when a few days later the second one popped up I couldn’t believe it…I almost thought there was a mini invasion of proselytizers hunting for me.
To make an end on my continued banning to hell I told him that even my mother’s example of being a devote Catholic could never sell me the message the Jesus = God. So that he was largely wasting his time on me and should better find someone else ready to listen to him. Next second my mother was in hell.
Well, it was not in the US. It was in Europe. Maybe they are convinced all EU’ers and passing visitors urgently must “be saved”?
Well, they sound pretty naive to me. Hard to say what particular sects they may belong to, but my reaction to the statement “you are going to Hell” would be “Actually, no I’m not”. And then I would walk on.
If it makes you feel any better, some years ago I was driving out of Ginnison, Colorado, headed for Denver. Just outside of town there were a large number of hitchikers, carrying signs saying that they had been to a Christian retreat and needed rides to various places. Normally I don’t pick up hitchers but this group seemed safe enough, so I stopped for a young couple going my direction. No sooner had they gotten in the car when the male half, having barely said his name, asked if I’d been saved. When I said I didn’t suscribe to that belief he began a routine about how my sins had doomed me to Hell, etc. Well, I put up with his hectoring for about ten minutes, then said “Look, if I’m such a sinner, perhaps you’d like me to drop you off here so you can get a ride to Denver with someone that meets your qualifications.” The rest of the trip passed in blissful silence.
I guess what I’m saying is that you have encountered people who are members of a particularly annoying branch of Christianity that, I am happy to say, does not have an enormous following, and does not give them a divine right to be rude. If you don’t like what they have to say, you can tell them to piss off with a clear conscience.
Actually, I believe being Muslim, you believe Moses is a prophet from God. Just follow all the laws that Moses gave, and you’ll be fine. Granted if you break them, Moses did talk about a few ‘bad’ things that could happen, but being the good person you may be, I’d only worry about that if you did break any of the laws.
I have to chime in with another call of “Bullshit!” for the “Arab half” remark. Sounds like an excuse to use violence, or an atempt to claim you have special abilities because you were able to overcome the impulse to use violence.
As for the OP and his mom, I’ll bet against them ending up in Hell, because I have no reason to believe Hell actually exists.
Your personal contacts and conversations are woefully limited and narrow, in that case. The Orthodox Church does not have such a hard-and-fast set of rules regarding who is “doomed”. Only God (in English–in Arabic, it’s Allah, of course) is the judge, for only God can see all the “evidence” and “mitigating circumstances”.
What annoys me to no end about such people as you ran into is that Christ specifically condemned prosetylization, and this condemnation is maintained in all versions of Scripture acceptable to Protestants, to Orthodox, to Roman Catholics, indeed, to pretty much all varieties of Christian.
Huh? To proselytize is to try to get someone to convert. Where does Jesus specifically condemn trying to get people to convert to Christianity? It seems that in Matthew 28:19-20 Jesus commands proselytizing; certainly that’s the way that passage has been traditionally read (and not just by evangelical Protestants).
There is a difference between missionizing and proselytization. A positive mission is present, bearing witness and freely giving charity. Active attempt at conversion is not making disciples. In that same book of Scripture, Christ flat-out states
The sort of “door-to-door evangelism” that is prosetylization is the “leaven of the Pharisees”, which we are told to avoid.
Indeed, all of this chapter of Matthew is a condemnation of grand displays of piety and “high-publicity religion”. He speaks to “Pharisees”, but it is the Pharisee that any Christian can become who should take the greatest warning from this.