Being doomed....

Great Debates
#1

I saw a topic about “going to heaven” posted by a Christian member. I wouldn’t make my comments there since that obviously would be sort of a hijack. So I’ll post my comments and questions here.
As far as most of my personal conversations and other contacts with non-family/non friend Christians go, I’m even doomed already for not being a Christian.

As an example of that I’m told twice the last ten days that I go to hell because I don’t believe “Jesus is God” and “Jesus Saves” and Al Qur’an is an invention (one said of Satan, which was not all to original).
Of course -seen the rather obsessed character of their unwanted proselytizing - I told them also very directly that no man can be God and that Jesus was a human and a prophet.

The first happy encounter was on a train, the second one was when we came out of a hotel. It was a sort of mini-invasion of Christian proselytizers I guess.
One of them said that my late mother was in hell too.
Lucky for him that he said that in English, a language that those who were with me don’t understand that well to get a picture of what he just said. And also lucky for him that my European half immediately took control over my Arab half. Which is more then useful at such moments.

Now, since according to those Christians I go to hell anyway (to meet my mother there, and since I go for being Muslim, my father must also be there already. It thus will be the Happy Family Reunion in The Fire) I’ll ask some questions here I forgot to ask those two:

  1. Does this mean that I can have some backflash and imagine myself that I live during the crusades period(s)? (I would just love to be there, but that has a professional background)
  2. Does it also mean that according to the dooming-Christians I can sin at will since I’m doomed anyway?
    Salaam. A
#2

I imagine those “dooming Christians” would answer:

  1. No.
  2. Yes.

And could you explain why your “Arab-half” seems to you to be the part that would become violent and the “European-half” had to control it?

#3

There are some Christians who believe that all who do not accpet Christ as their savior, usually through baptism, are doomed to Hell. This belief is not universally held in Christian churches. Their opinion as to whether you are going to Hell is just that, only an opinion. They don’t have the authority to decide.

I don’t understand your question (1), so cannot comment.

Re: question (2), I’d say yes; on the basis of the minority Christian belief that if you are not saved, it doesn’t matter what other sins you may have committed; you are still doomed. This of course leaves out possibility that you have promised not to sin within the rules of another religion that you may follow.

Of course, you’re off the hook anyway. IMO, there are no such deities as you describe, nor is there any such thing as “Hell”.

I assume you mean you weree tempted to phyisically attack that person. Tell me, where is it legal to physically hurt someone purely because they said something you disagree with?

#4

Aldebaran, there’s a flip side to that coin which is even more frightening. If the only thing which is required to get into heaven is to accept Christ as one’s saviour, then, by that standard, a Christian who’s done so will get into heaven regardless of whatever else he or she does in this world.

Not all Christians believe what the two you encountered do, and this Christian would argue that by telling you your mother is suffering an eternity of torment which it’s too late to do anything about, they are being cruel to you, or trying to, thus breaking the commandment given to them by Christ, Himself. Of course, the counter argument is that they were loving you as themselves by trying to save you from an eternity of torment, just as they have been saved. I don’t find that a credible argument, and it would not make me more inclined to embrace Christianity.

CJ

#5

No, I was not “'tempted to fysically attack the person” how much you would like to see that confirming your obviously rather stereotype thinking of “Arabs”.
I was a bit tempted however to give him a verbal - not so very calm - lesson about how how we Arabs respect our mothers and don’t support anything that can even remotely insults them.

There is a saying of the Prophet:

Paradise lies unther the feet of your mother.

If you want to insult an Arab, insult his mother. You can’t find anything better then that. But I can’t guarantee you that there aren’t locations on this globe where such a thing brings you indeed in physical danger.

Now going further on my questions and your replies:

So I can sin at will according to the Christians. I’m doomed anyway.

Then how on earth can Christians call Muslims who kill Christians “terrorists” which implies to me also “sinners”? They say themselves that they can sin at will. That is in my opinion an open invitation for everyone who isn’t Christian to follow no matter which morally not-so-kosher urge. Their is no recue possible anyway. We are born and live to be doomed.
I’m pondering now on which sin I shall commit first…
Salaam. A

#6

Yes, I know that. I’ve been on message boards where Christian posters were defending that concept. They said they could do what they want “Jesus saves”.
I tried to stay polite = not to laugh that hard that it came through cyberspace.

His arugment was that my mother, being a Christian (Catholic) herself had become an apostate since I was raised Muslim. I think that counts then also for her whole family, since they never made any attempts to “save” me from my Satanic Religion.

Yes they were very loving, since repeating with a smile: " You go to hell". Yet they said they would pray for the Holy Ghost to bring Jesus in my life.
I said that Jesus was already in my life. Al Qur’an is full of Jesus.
I don’t need him though to contact God, let be to “save” me.

I grew up with Catholicism all around me since my late mother was a practicing Catholic who received visit from her priest at daily base. I was never inclined to believe what she believed though. I think I’m born Christianity-resistent.

Salaam. A

#7

You are assuming something that wasn’t there. I was asking for you clarify what you meant by “lucky for him”. I think for for most people that would mean a threat of physical harm. If I may make an observation, you take offense more quickly than just about anyone I have ever seen who posts to this board.

I will also point out that you are hijacking your own thread by turning this discussion to terrorism. Nevertheless, I will answer as best I can.

Because, common English usage “terrorist” and “sinner” are two different terms with two different meanings. Reference:

http:www.m-w.com

To my knowledge, 1) Christians, as a group, do not universally call muslims, as a group, terrorists; 2) Christians who use the term “terrorist” do not do so because they believe specifically that the persons so labeled are sinners, just that they prefer to target civilians in a conflict; 3) I am unaware of any data that suggests Christians are more likely to use the term “terrorist” to describe any particualr group of combatants than non-Christians. If you have such data, feel free to submit it.

In other words, the label “terrorist” when used correctly, applies to the behavior of the combatants, rather than any other particular trait, such as ethnicity.

Hope this answers your questions to your satisfaction.

#8

Aldebaran, be happy, neither you nor your mother are going to hell.

#9

Nope. Because there isn’t such a thing as hell. Nor a ‘heaven’.
So, if you wanna sin, Aldebaran why not try to be an arrogant, swanky - but sad - agitator?

Or did you try that?

#10

Cite?

#11

hehehe

#12

I’ve heard some very strange arguments coming from other Christians, but this is the first time I’ve heard this one. I’d love to see the scriptural justification for that and, if I’d been there, I would have asked him for it. What a poor, thin heaven this person will inhabit if he denies it to as many people as he seems intent on doing so.

I am sorry this happened. On the other hand, if you’re doomed, then so are many of the finest people I know, including, by this man’s standards, my own mother – I think my brother’s an atheist – and my father’s mother, whom I loved dearly. I’d prefer their company to his. In fact, when I read of all the people to whom heaven will be denied by some Christian’s standards, I’ll opt for hell myself, and there’ll already be a large contingent of Dopers there having one -er- hell of a party. Care to join us? :wink:

CJ

#13

Ah! So Israelis, being Jewish and therefore Damned and Doomed and all that, might as well just kill all the Palestinians !!
Genocide Time!! HEHE !!!

NOT:rolleyes:

See, guys and girls - what you do with your life on this mortal coil - whether or not you believe in the afterlife - is kind of important! Taking the “Jesus Saves!” (or Allah, or God) line to its logical extreme is a sure-fire recipe for anarchy and therefore invalidates the concept as far as I am concerned

Ya wanna Believe? Go ahead, but live your life as a decent human being, and as part of a decent group of people, first! If your belief makes it OK for you or anyone else to practice, say, wanton violence, then I, for one, will object strongly to that belief of yours!

(And before someone hijacks the thread further by bringing up “what about the extermists among the Jewish settlers?” - I personally loathe them as a group, classing them in the same “Jesus Saves” nutjob category. Geo-politics are a different question, which is normally being discussed on at least three concurrent threads here… so let’s avoid it!)

#14

These people that were so rude to you are just representative of some Christians – not even all fundamentalist Christians. In fact, the most famous fundamentalist Christian minister in the world believes that people of many faiths, including Islam, go to heaven.

I don’t believe there is a hell the way that many people think of hell. But I do believe in Paradise for all – but probably in a different and even better way than a lot of people do.

I don’t know the answer to either of your questions, but I think that I would still try to be reasonably decent even if there were no Paradise.

#15

Here, Jesus directly compares our relationship to our sons with God’s relationship to His sons (us). I would never condemn anyone to hell, least of all a son of mine, so is this infinitely loving and forgiving God less loving or less forgiving than me?

I think not. Therefore there is no hell. Happy?

Care to provide a cite that says a)there is a hell b)Muslims are going there?

#16

oh, god. I thought the ‘cite’ was a joke.

Why do people keep citing the bible [or quoran] for questions about going to hell, or not?

What if you don’t accept the fairy-tales of some writers, long, long ago?

#17

There are certainly many Christians who believe that you can only obtain heaven thru Jesus Christ. And that non-Christians cannot get to heaven. The most fundamental tenet of Christianity is that Jesus died for the sins of mankind. That he is The Savior, and that his death allowed the forgivenss of sins. It’s not too much of a step to then say that it is only thru Him that one can get to heaven. Isn’t there a quote in one of the gospels that says exactly that?

But aren’t there also Moslems who believe that non-Moslems are “infidels” and therefore cannot get to paradise in the afterlife?

It’s really not that complicated. When a religion claims to be the only true path, then it makes sense for it to also claim that other paths lead to damnation.

#18

But how does that lead to condemning Aldebaran’s mother?!

CJ

#19

Siege,

I guess the explanation is that she “permitted” that I was educated as a Muslim and didn’t fight until her last breath to make people instruct me exclusively about what she believed.
I guess that the mere fact that she loved and married a Muslim can also be a factor in this reasoning.

Salaam. A

#20

JonMace

Yes, there are certainly a lot of Muslims who claim that “infidels” can’t enter heaven.
Yet those who know the religion must also know that this isn’t for humans to decide about things only God can decide aboutl.

Since you mentioned bible quotes, I have one for you out of an other Holy Book:)

**Al Qur’an

surat al-ma’ida (V); 69.

Those who believe, those who adhere to Judaism, the Sabians and the Christians who believe in God and the Last Day and who act with virtue, they have nothing to fear nor shall they grieve.**

Further is said in Al Qur’an that God “created many ways”. Which means that there are many ways to worship God.

Salaam. A
The Great Doomed One