Jesus! The Great Fire Insurance??

[Cyrin]

Seriously! I am getting rather sick of 2 things!

1. Christians constantly USING (and I mean that in the most derogatory sense) Christ as their “savior”. As if the point of following Christ’s teaching was to merely avoid “Hell” and get to Heaven!

2. People who choose not to believe in God because they don’t like his policy of “follow me or burn in hell”.

To address both issues I would like to point out that when Christ referred to “Hell” he used the word “Gehenna” (sp?) Which was, for all intents and purposes, the garbage dump outside the city. He was using an example of a terrible place to describe what existence without God would be like. So can we infer that Hell will be just like that Garbage dump? No! What we are made aware of is that God cannot be in the presence of sin, because he is actually the exact opposite… think of it as the whole matter anti-matter research going on right now. The two cannot come in contact with each other or the anti-matter is destroyed. I would rather

So God is faced with a dilemma. “Because I love mankind, I gave them free choice. They chose to sin. Nutz! Ok, well I still love them despite this so I will give them an opportunity to atone for their sin. Sacrifice, then they can get back to a loving relationship and life which reflects love, a sinless life. Oh no, they are just using the sacrificial system to make themselves feel better about their sinful lives! OK, here, I’ll abolish that system and I’ll sacrifice my Son, after he leads a completely sinless life and he will be the payment for the sin in their lives if they choose to accept that he was my son and aknowledge the wisom of his loving example for living.”

The point is that God desires US! He ACTUALLY loves us to the point that he continually gives us ways that we can get to spend an eternity with him. At the same time he gives us an example of how to lead a healthy life. An example which comes from someone who designed this existence. I figure he would know how to live effectively and safely!

Hell is a term we have associated with a lot of things, very few of which are biblically based. This existence we are in now is full of suffering, but God is here, I don’t even want to comprehend an existence apart from God, that is just downright scary.

Now, as for fire insurance. I don’t follow Christ because he is going to save me from Hell. I follow him because I see much wisdom in his example and teaching. I desire to Love others and God, while I’m here. In the end, I believe that I will end up spending eternity with God, but that isn’t my goal.

Here on earth, I refuse to “look out for number 1”. I’m more interested in numbers 2 through 4 billion (is that correct?) I choose to give what I have to other people and to fill their needs before I fill my own needs or “wants”. I choose to get past my death now, that way I don’t have to live in fear, and let fear govern my actions. If I truly believe that death is not the end, why should I fear it? I can accomplish so much to the benefit of others if I stop putting me before you!

Well, this has pretty much turned into a declaration of my position on life, but I would be interested to debate the wisdom or lack thereof in living this way.

Çyrin

[Mangetout]

Okay.

[Kwyjibo]

Many people believe for many different reasons.

Some very well may take Jesus as their savior so as to get into Heaven and avoid hell. Some may just believe out of fear of being punished for not believing.

Where as I understand your point that you feel people are not accepting Jesus for ‘real’ reasons, you yourself have said that a persons relationship with God is a personal thing. It’s between the person and God, so let them have it.

If God doesn’t like it, he’ll sort them out in the end.

[Cyrin]

“Let them have it”

Well, sure, but consider me someone who is generally concerned for their well being. I think that using Christ as a crutch was not his intended use and may end up producing less than desirable results. Also, I think Christs usefulness in this life is so important, that is shouldn’t be missed, especially by those claiming him as their saviour. If he is to save you in the next life, why not save you now by following his example of how to live, for it is truly beneficial to your cause! If you choose not to be saved now, whats to say you’ll be guaranteed salvation later? The path to self destruction is self preservation, so preserve others and you then shall be spared!

[PolskiKing]

When people refer to Jesus as a savior, it doesnt mean he saved us from hell,
rather he saves us all from our sins. Therefore, its not follow him
and you wont go to hell. Its follow him and he will forgive u when u dont

-pk

[kniz]

*Originally posted by Çyrin *
Well, sure, but consider me someone who is generally concerned for their well being.

Thanks for the thought, but please don’t try and save me in this life or the next.

[Cyrin]

*Originally posted by kniz *
**Thanks for the thought, but please don’t try and save me in this life or the next. **

Deal.

[Kwyjibo]

*Originally posted by Çyrin *
**“Let them have it”

Well, sure, but consider me someone who is generally concerned for their well being.**

Çyrin, you know I know you pretty well and know that you are a caring person. I think your consern for your fellow human being is admirable, but those that you are mulling over may and probably don’t see things the way you do. (You know full well I don’t.)

I can understand that when people don’t see things the way you do, it can be frustrating. But if it’s not hurting you, then let them be.

Ya don’t see me, and athiest, trying to change you and the things you believe. For me to do so would be, IMHO, wrong. (Ya bible thumping fundie. )

[SandyHook]

I choose not to believe in a god or gods because there is no reason, that I see, to suspect (beyond a .0000000000001% chance that I might be wrong) that they exist. And in the unlikely event they do there is no reason to think they give a hoot if we worship them or not.

If there is a god let it give us some proof that they exist and desire our adoration.

[robertliguori]

I’m more interested in numbers 2 through 4 billion…

Does this mean that you care about any arbitrary person other than yourself more then you care about yourself?
I’m asking because there are many people who need a place to stay, a few bucks, and a vital organ or two. Do you mean that you care about the needs of other people above you own wants (charity vs. new TV), or needs of other people above your own needs (charity vs. food budget)?

Also, other random nitpick. Person A has an egg MacGuffin, and is hungry. Person B has no egg MacGuffin, and is also hungry. I assume you don’t advocating the taking of A’s yummy plot device.
Now, stick yourself in person A’s slot. Why are your wants less important then other people’s wants?

[Cyrin]

*Originally posted by robertliguori *
**Does this mean that you care about any arbitrary person other than yourself more then you care about yourself?
I’m asking because there are many people who need a place to stay, a few bucks, and a vital organ or two. Do you mean that you care about the needs of other people above you own wants (charity vs. new TV), or needs of other people above your own needs (charity vs. food budget)?

Also, other random nitpick. Person A has an egg MacGuffin, and is hungry. Person B has no egg MacGuffin, and is also hungry. I assume you don’t advocating the taking of A’s yummy plot device.
Now, stick yourself in person A’s slot. Why are your wants less important then other people’s wants? **

Excellent question!

ABSOLUTLY! Needs are a matter of debate. I would like to think that if people are in need of a VITAL organ, then were I to give it up, I would also then be in need of said vital organ. In the off chance that I could spare one, and I was made aware of an immediate need where I was a candidate for donation (blood match etc.) I would certainly donate.

I have a well paying job, but I live on as little as possible so I can give as much away as possible! As for the food issue, I would give away my egg MacGuffin without a second thought. (This is an unfair example as I dislike eggs, but you get the idea) because I believe that the only security in life is that which God offers, therefore if I am faithful in living a life struggling to honour him with my actions, he will provide for me. That’s what I believe, so that is how I live! It really helps to get over your own death, as I said before. I don’t mind giving up all of my needs because I don’t fear death. If I don’t eat, but someone else does, excellent, in the event that I go for 40+ days without food and start to die, well then I die.

It may seem radical and awkward and messed up, but the way we as a society live, it not working out, so why swim with the current? If it’s broken, do what you can to fix it!

Çyrin

[Cyrin]

Oh, and Kwyjibo, I am not out to tell anyone what to believe, or to change or to be a bible thumpin fundie! What was bothering me was the notion that God sits about and tells us to worship him or burn in hell. That’s not what the Bible teaches and so it’s not a valid reason to paint God in that light!

HOWEVER, within each persons belief system there are MANY valid reasons to believe what you believe, I respect other peoples stances, feelings, opinions and such, I just want to make sure that just because a preacher says it does not make it so!

Çyrin

[Kwyjibo]

*Originally posted by Çyrin *
Oh, and Kwyjibo, I am not out to tell anyone what to believe, or to change or to be a bible thumpin fundie!

I know you’re not a Fundie…you’re the farthest thing from. I was pulling you’re leg.

*Originally posted by Çyrin *
HOWEVER, within each persons belief system there are MANY valid reasons to believe what you believe, I respect other peoples stances, feelings, opinions and such, I just want to make sure that just because a preacher says it does not make it so!

(Bolding Mine)
I fully understand bud. But other people see it differently. All I am saying is, don’t let that frustration get to you. It’s only hurting you.

[toadspittle]

2. People who choose not to believe in God because they don’t like his policy of “follow me or burn in hell”.

To address both issues I would like to point out that when Christ referred to “Hell” he used the word “Gehenna” (sp?) Which was, for all intents and purposes, the garbage dump outside the city. He was using an example of a terrible place to describe what existence without God would be like.

What was bothering me was the notion that God sits about and tells us to worship him or burn in hell. That’s not what the Bible teaches and so it’s not a valid reason to paint God in that light!

A little Revelation:

[10] And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
[11] And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
[12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
[13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
[14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
[15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

[7] He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
[8] But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

So while, perhaps Christ himself didn’t say this (not in the Gospels), Revelation is considered the inspired word of God and has remained in the Biblical canon for a long long time. So your assertion that this threat, “worship God or burn forever,” is not a part of Biblical teaching, is incorrect.

(And the weasel apologia I’ve often heard, that those who are not saved will be cast into the lake of fire and simply destroyed, rather than eternally tormented, seems pretty damn thin, considering that the devil, false prophet, and beast were all chucked into the same lake and are being tormented … unless there are multiple lakes of fire or resurrected sinners are less durable than fallen angels, things which are not mentioned in the text.)

[Sdrawkcab]

Revelation, being apocalyptic literature, is not about the end of the world, but instead the Roman persecution of Christians in the 90s CE. Nothing in it should be taken the least bit literally.

[toadspittle]

Revelation, being apocalyptic literature, is not about the end of the world, but instead the Roman persecution of Christians in the 90s CE. Nothing in it should be taken the least bit literally.

Of course. But you get yourself on a big ol’ slippery slope right there.

“It’s just an allegory.” Skeptics could point to other parts of the bible as being allegorical or metaphorical, too, and that wouldn’t leave much behind but the trial with Pilate.

[FriarTed]

While I believe the Lake of Fire is the Blast of God’s Reality as experienced by those who have lived out of harmony with Him/Her & will result in either their restoration or their elimination- lets see who are threatened with the LoF- Revelation 14- the Beast-Worshippers- those who identify with Oppressive Murderous Statism; Rev 20- those whose natures (names) are inconsistent with Divine Life; Rev 22- cowards, the distrustful or unfaithful (a better transaltion than
“unbelievers”), the disgusting (one does not have to read “gays” into this- just truly awful people by any decent standard), those who use & abuse others sexually, those who manipulate others by drugs or sorcery, those who treat material transient things as being of ultimate value, and deceivers. OK- I can see blasting all those folk.

Also- the idea of Eternal Torment only stands up if one reads The Revelation out of context of the rest of the Bible. There are a couple iffy phrases Christ used, but most of His “threats” and ALL the “threats” of the Jewish Prophets were at worst threats of temporal pain followed by eventual extinction (tho there are passages in the Jewish Prophets, Jesus’ teachings & Paul’s letters especially that hint at possible eventual restoration).

Cyrin- I like your take on this. Btw, I’ll also point out that after
a generation of the Jerusalem authorities rejecting Christ’s message of subverting an oppressive foe by peace & forgiveness, and also by
persecuting his followers, Jerusalem broke out in civil war, uprising against Rome & eventual literal Gehenna Fire as the Romans then trashed & burned the City, the Temple & the Priesthood, and enslaved the survivors.

Who got out free & clear?- those Jewish followers of Jesus who saw what was coming down & got out when they could, as per his counsel.

[Cyrin]

I tend to look at the lake of fire like this:

To fully understand an existence apart from God, is like trying to wrap your head around non-linear existence, can’t be done. So, how would a person who was describing such a thing explain it other than eternal torment, or a “Lake of Fire”. While I believe I really would be surprised if there were a literal lake of fire, I think it would perhaps be an adequate way of saying, you really don’t want to find out what existence apart from Love (God) is! Simply put, would you like to find out what is like to spend some time in a lake of fire??

Admittedly this is a silly argument, in that it doesn’t matter what I think or what you think, what will eventually happen will be unkown until it happens, but my point was that God does not enter into this relationship with threats, he offers us a chance to stay in his prescence, why we ask “why? What’s so bad about leaving your prescence he explains just how bad it would be!” I think that’s pretty fair.