Jesus a terrorist?

Great Debates
1

Think about it before you answer. I am not looking for a bunch of “your an idiot” or “your wrong, but I cant explain why” … if I wanted to be flamed like that I would have posted this question on the www.gospel.com message boards. What I am looking for is a bit of logical reasoning from people who agree with me or disagree with me and can explain why.

The way I see it: Jesus is born, insert events here, “I am the son of god!” insert events here, believe in god or go to hell. This is my admittedly simple-minded view of what happened. Now, when I think about it, that sounds like a threatening decree… believe in god or go to hell? Isnt that like saying, “free our leader into our custody or we’ll detonate a nuke in one of your biggest cities” a bit of a stretch, and a bad analogy at least, but surely you see where I am going with this?

And, if there is a god, and this is his idea of how the world should work (that is, live your life, choose christianity or go to hell), isnt it a bit… I dont know… sick? Think about it… Create humans, give them the freedom to think, to reason, to choose… but then, give them the choice of religions, with no concrete proof of any being right, then send them to hell if they choose incorrectly. Seems more random to me than anything else. Your ultimate destiny determined by where you are born, who you are raised by, how you are taught.

But, if this is how god wanted things to work, maybe there is a reason beyond my comprehension. I dont question god anymore, he ignores me, thats why I am questioning you.

But now I am getting off topic… lets not start any holy wars. Not on this post, there are plenty of posts on this board for that. Back to the question: Jesus = terrorist? Thoughts?

I hope I havent offended anyone with this. If you dont like what I have to say, and you really have nothing to contribute, please, please ignore it… like I said, I dont want to be flamed. Oh, and one more thing, I dont really care if I mispelled that, or misused that word, or whatever… English isnt my first language, and anything like that is really irrelevant - you know what I am asking, if you feel the need to correct me on anything, please let it be in my way of thinking, and not in my expression of my thoughts.

2

Basic premise is in error. Jesus never said “I am son of God.”

Please reboot and try again.

3

Fair enough, how about a different angle: god a terrorist? I am sure that somewhere in the Bible it says that if you do not believe in god you will go to hell, as am I sure that most people believe the Bible is god-inspired…

Maybe next time I proof read my posts before posting them, yes?

4

And besides, I clearly stated “simple minded view” …

If I am wrong, it wouldnt hurt you to be a bit more specific as to why :slight_smile:

The basic premise is not in error, the details of the basic premise are in error, and what you basically just told me, is: “your wrong, but I am not going to explain why”

5

You haven’t been here too long, have you?

In response to the OP: I would suggest that there is an element of fear in Christianity, yes. I have often argued that if (the Biblical) God really wanted humans to have free will, Hell would not be necessary. It only seems to cause people to not question things or to think rationally.

Jesus also said “I did not come to bring peace, but a sword”. Indeed, there was nothing peaceful about throwing the money-lenders and sacrificial animal vendors out of the Temple. Yet, he did not involve himself with the efforts the people at the time who could be considered terrorists / freedom fighters (the Zealots).

So, we’ve narrowed the field to spiritual terrorism. Yet, for all of Jesus comments on Hell, we also have comments on love. It seems to me to lose a lot of the ethical meaning to change “Love thy neighbor” to “love thy neighbor…OR ELSE”.

We know that the Gospels were based on an earlier work composed of Jesus’ sayings. Perhaps it is not too much of a stretch to believe that Jesus, in the Bible, is not only the historical Jesus, but also the Jesus that the early Christians wanted him to be. Or, more simply, that Jesus was indeed the Son of Man and not the Son of God, and that his violence was an imperfection. I don’t think this reflects poorly on his message of love and compassion. If anything, it makes it more accessible to us as mere mortals.

6

John 14:6-7, for one, Monty.
To address the OP, terrorism is not in the thought but in the act.

You are misunderstanding the word “terrorist” (as many are these days) It is not a synonym for any “bad guy.” It refers specifically to those who anonymously initiate surprise attacks on unprepared civilians to further a political and/or ideological cause. It does not refer to anyone in a uniform, and certainly not to anyone who is merely talking, even if they were inciting violence, which Jesus was obviously not.

In short, you grossly misinterpret the term to the extent that the question is absurd.

As far as you general objection to Christianity, if there is a God, I would submit that your description of him as sick makes as much sense as a four-year old’s complaints that his parents are unfair and cruel because of the rules and conditions they impose on him. If there is a God, the universe is not a democracy.

7

Well, it seems to me that a Christian might answer you by saying (and I welcome any actual Christians to correct me here) that Jesus saying, “Believe I’m G-d or you’re going to hell”(if he actually did say that…but we’ll assume it’s true for this post) is the same as me saying, “Don’t drink that bottle of vodka or you’ll puke all over the carpet.” In both cases, bad things will happen if you don’t follow the instructions, but in neither case is that a threat. It’s just a consequence of your action…you drink too much, you puke; you reject Jesus, you go to hell.

8

<- 3 posts.

I’m definately a newcomer. No one even bothered to welcome me :slight_smile:

Wow people here are picky. What I mean and what I say are 2 entirely different things… most of the time. I will try to be more clear in the future.

… most people believe the Bible is god-inspired… that is to say, many people who believe in god, believe the bible is god-inspired.

“terrorism: The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.” - Dictionary.com

Furt, perhaps the meaning in my objection to Christianity was lost… Another bad analogy? Coming up! This 4 year old complains because the parents give him rules and consequences, threatening him with punishment if he should disobey. Then said parents disappear for 2000 years, and expect the 4 year old to follow these rules, pass these rules on to his children, and have his children follow these rules – for if they do not, the phantom parents will come back and punish them.

9

But… Jesus is god? Somthing about Jesus the holy ghost… somthing somthing… I dont know. When you say dont drink the vodka or you’ll puke on the carpet, you didnt make the vodka, you didnt make the chemical reaction between the alcohol and your blood (or whatever makes you drunk, I’m not an expert, and I am sure many people here are :)), and you didnt make the carpet or the reaction to being drunk (puking on the carpet).

God seems to be… like… I made you, I made all the rules, I give you the ability to think, to choose, and if you disobey me (which I have set you up perfectly to do) I’ve made a nice little place called hell for you.

When I was a child and I set ants on fire with a magnifying glass, I always chose the ants that went off on their own (they burned better). But when they didnt go off on their own, I destroyed their mound so they would scatter. I set them up to make a choice: do they run to my left or my right? Do they run towards me or away from me? If they wound up the the wrong place, they got burnt. I am bad at giving examples… and this is really only slightly related to the topic… its too late :o

10

Er, you walk in off the street, into our most serious Debate forum, with “admittedly simple-minded views”, and you say something like, “Jesus was a terrorist!” and you expect us to welcome you?

Well, heck, welcome to the Straight Dope Message Board? :smiley:

Hey, guys–fresh meat!

:smiley:

See the Straight Dope Home Page? See where it says “Fighting Ignorance Since 1973”? That’s what this website, and this message board is all about–is accuracy. Pickiness, in other words.

If you don’t want to deal with “pickiness”, go over to IMHO or MPSIMS or Cafe Society and shoot the breeze, chew the fat, whatever. This forum here is Great Debates, with the accent on “Great”, and yes, there’s a lot of pickiness involved.

Needless to say, this attitude is not appreciated here, 'kay? :wink: We don’t think it’s “cute”. Here at the SDMB you live (or die–heh :smiley: ) by what you say, not by what you meant to say. We’re not mind readers.

And BTW, have you noticed yet that this Message Board does not allow you to edit your posts after they’re posted? So think before you post, and preview, preview, preview…

The Department of Defense’s official definition of terrorism. See how much of it matches God.

http://www.vandenberg.af.mil/30sw/organizations/30sg/sfs/antiterrorism.htm

So, does God:
[ul]
[li] --utilize violence or the threat of violence to inculcate fear?[/li][li] --try to coerce or intimidate governments or societies in pursuit of His goals?[/li][/ul]
Answers:
[ul]
[li] No.[/li][li] No.[/li][/ul]

Here’s a slightly different version.
http://www.periscope.ucg.com/terms/t0000282.html

Any of these fit?
[ul]
[li] --Does God use premeditated political violence against noncombatant targets?[/li][li] --Is God a subnational group or a clandestine state agent?[/li][li] --Is God trying to influence an audience?[/li][/ul]
Answers:
[ul]
[li] No.[/li][li] No.[/li][li] No.[/li][/ul]

11

Praesumptio - Welcome! (I ain’t been here too long either, and nobody wlecomed me. Don’t feel bad, we’re the dancing laughing singing crud of the earth)

I think furt’s explanation that it was more an observation than a threat is the current take on the “Word.” The Spanish Inquisition, on the other hand, could be considered terorists, eh? Many folks in history have taken up arms in the name of “The Lord.” Makes me think of Rodney King. All the riots break out and he comes out saying, “Hey! This isn’t what I wanted! Can’t we all just get along?”

Spiritual terrorism, there’s a concept. It’s only terrorism if the people you’re talking to believe in what you’re saying in the first place. If they didn’t believe his version of the workings of The Big Cheese, they would call him a whacko and left it at that (which is what happened).

The religion that sprang up in his footsteps did a lot to stifle development of western science, despite providing inspiration. But we can’t blame the man for that.

12

Certainly the Roman Emperors of the 2nd and 3rd centuries would have considered Palestine (or even the Christians living in Rome) a rogue state.

13

Praesumptio, you have a very warped view of Christianity. I don’t mean that to be harsh, because many people have the same view.

It’s not about threats or punishments. It’s not a long list of dos and dont’s. It’s about having a relationship with God. If you don’t wish to have that relationship, that’s your choice. And hell is simply eternal seperation from God. And yes, Christians believe that that seperation is more horrible than anything we can imagine, which is why they want to stop you from going.

In the end, if the Christians are right, and you chose not to have that relationship (and to accept the relationship on his terms, not yours), you will be given exactly what you wanted.

14

I take it you mean:

Now please explain how this means Jesus is saying he is the Son of God when elsewhere in the New Testament we have:

Now please explain to me why this should be considered any different than looking at God as the father of us all.

15

Monty, I’m not going to respond because it would end up being a hijack, and because detailed discussions on Jesus’ claims to divinity have already appeared on these boards. No need to reprise them here.

16

That’s kind of a weak non-response response, furt. :wink:

Anyway, it isn’t a hijack as the OP specifically stated that Jesus said “I am the Son of God.” He didn’t.

17

Hmm… my origional question should have read: Could jesus be called a terrorist?

So far, the only response I’ve gotten anywhere close to what I was asking for is from duck duck goose.

And I am not completely sold on the DoD or DIA defn. of terrorism… that may be a great working definition as far as this country’s defense is concerned, but I’d be more interested in, say, a Webster’s definition.

All I want to know, is could the words Jesus and terrorist be associated with each other. That is, by the definition of terrorism… is Jesus, (or god) a terrorist?

And, sorry again, I am a newcomer to these boards… just let me be a moron for a few days, and I’m sure good fellows like Goose will straighten me out :slight_smile:

When I say… simple… minded… ahh to hell with it… I’m just digging myself deeper :stuck_out_tongue:

Dig up, stupid!

18

"Er, you walk in off the street, into our most serious Debate forum, with “admittedly simple-minded views”, and you say something like, “Jesus was a terrorist!” and you expect us to welcome you?

Well, heck, welcome to the Straight Dope Message Board? " - Duck Duck Goose

Actually, what the topic reads is: “Jesus a terrorist?” not, “Jesus was a terrorist!”

Sorry… dont mean to be picky.

19

No, Jesus wasn’t a terrorist. He did not preach resistance to Roamn rule, and he even specifically told the Zealots, a fundamentalist religious political group that used violence and terror to try to get the Romans to leave the province of Judea, that they were on the wrong track. Jesus told Peter to put up his sword when the crowd arrested Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane. Jesus even healed the ear of one of the men sent to arrest Him.

Now some of His followers…

20

Praesumptio** I think you misunderstand how humans are condemned to Hell. First, All have sinned and are headed for hell. It isn’t a punishment or retaliation from God for not believing in him. We are redemed through Jesus Christ not condemned by him! For example, I sinned and because of that I would be heading towards hell, but then I confess my sins to Jesus. I turn from my sin(repent). And I ask Jesus to take leadership in my life and form a relationship with my savior. I will have been saved from hell. What Jesus did was out of love not terrorist intent. He didn’t die on the cross to destroy others, but to save them from hell! Comparing Jesus to a terrorist is like comparing an apple to an elephant! (they arn’t even both fruit):slight_smile: