Jesus a terrorist?

Theological hijack

See, Monty, here is where we have a sticking point betwen LDS and mainstream (sorry) Christian theology. While Jesus never specifically says, “I am the son of God,” he accepts the title when it is applied to him, as in Matthew 16:16-17. (I use the KJV in deference to LDS sensibilities.)

and in John 11:25-27

Given that Jesus forgave sins in the name of Heavenly Father (Luke 5:21-22)

Cast out demons (Luke 8:28-29)

Referred to Himself in the third person as the Son of God (John 17:1,)

Raised the dead (John17:39:44)

and the angel Gabriel told Mary that her son was the Son of God (Luke 1:30-35),
the standard Christian doctrine is that Jesus was the Son of God, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, and He has a relationship with God the Father that is unique. To quote the Nicene Creed in part

Sheesh, some atheist I am!

The Department of Defense’s official definition of terrorism. See how much of it matches Jesus.

http://www.vandenberg.af.mil/30sw/organizations/30sg/sfs/antiterrorism.htm

So, did Jesus:
[ul]
[li] --utilize violence or the threat of violence to inculcate fear?[/li][li] --try to coerce or intimidate governments or societies in pursuit of His goals?[/li][/ul]
Answers:
[ul]
[li] No.[/li][li] No.[/li][/ul]

Here’s a slightly different version.
http://www.periscope.ucg.com/terms/t0000282.html

Any of these fit?
[ul]
[li] --Did Jesus use premeditated political violence against noncombatant targets?[/li][li] --Was Jesus a subnational group or a clandestine state agent?[/li][li] --Was Jesus trying to influence an audience?[/li][/ul]
Answers:
[ul]
[li] No.[/li][li] No.[/li][li] Yes, but trying to “influence an audience” by itself doesn’t make a person a terrorist–if that were true, then Rush Limbaugh would have some 'splaining to do, down at Homeland headquarters.[/li][/ul]
Hey, wait a minute…

Praesumptio, I can clearly see how you could have formed the proposition you brought up for debate through a misperception of the stance taken by many conservative evangelical Christians – but, quite frankly, you’re wrong.

First, Jesus Himself never made any of the claims that are made in His name by orthodox Trinitarians. He identified Himself as one with “the Father” – by which He clearly meant the God of Judaism. And He indicated that after His death His followers would receive “another Paraclete” – understood to be the Holy Spirit. The verses from John quoted above are quite simply His response to one of His closest followers asking Him to “Show us the Father, and we will be satisfied.” The reconstruction of them into a “my way or highway” stance regarding salvation on His part is something that does not fit accurate Scriptural exegesis. What exactly He meant by the second sentence is debatable, but I doubt that He took His last night with His twelve chosen followers to suggest a new theological topic of exclusivist intellectual adherence to doctrines concerning Him that He had not yet spoken of in the previous three years they’d been together.

Now, virtually every person who uses the term Christian except for the Christian UUists adheres to the idea that He is at the same time a human being and the incarnate Second Person of the Triune God. But that’s a doctrinal interpretation of what His nature and role is, not something that He explicitly taught.

One has to remember that the line between godhood and its antithesis in the Greek world was a bit more nebulous than the sharp line drawn by the Jews and preserved in today’s thought. And that the New Testament was written in Greek by Greek-speaking Jews. This means that references to Jesus as God may not be precisely what they sound like to us.

Finally, the Heaven/Hell dichotomy that pervades any such religious discussion in Christian America is the product of the superimposition of what it was that the Jews and Jesus taught over the mythical concepts of the Greeks, Romans, and Germanic peoples as to what the afterlife was supposed to be.

So to construct Jesus in the role of somebody who says, “Believe that I’m God or you’re gonna go to Hell” is to take a misperception of what it was He taught, incorporate later theological doctrine into His concept of His role, and then put the whole thing into a criminal-court metaphor that was in no way what the Jews meant by judgment.

The one time Jesus spoke of individual responsibility and morality in connection with the Judgment of God was in the Parable of the Sheep and Goats. And it was explicitly geared to the idea that moral behavior towards one’s fellow man is key, and the legal equivalent of doing the same thing to Him.

The implications of this for Christian theology are quite deep.

** Praesumptio** you seem to have missed the point already raised that as far as most Christians believe, hell is simply the eternal absence of God.

So if you reject God, you choose an eternity without God. That isn’t a threat - it’s a simple truism.

pan

(Now the Old Testament God - there was a terrorist! Even by the strict DDG interpretation).

pan

Don’t forget John 10:36, where Jesus says,

And Luke 22:70,

welcome.

Hate to tell you this, gobear, but that’s pretty much what the LDS preach too. I’m just not your average run-of-the-mill adult convert to the faith.

Short memo to people who haven’t mastered elementary logic:

“Son of X” does not equal “X”

With the possible exception of a woman conceived parthenogenetically, everybody here has a father. Not one of us is the person who is his or her father. (Assuming, for the sake of argument, the absence of time machines and incestuous tendencies among those using them.;))

Any claims of Jesus to be “the Son of God” or “the Son of Man” do not equate to claiming to be God. It is due to theologians following Athanasius that Jesus is conceived to be a part of the godhead of the Holy Trinity.

(I presume that we are not in the process of debating the fine points of Christian theology here but rather what Jesus Himself is shown by Scripture to be claiming to be. If this is incorrect, I’d appreciate someone posting a clarification.)

Well, hold on, I’m positive that there is a fundamental dispute between the LDS and mainstream Christians over the nature and relationship of God and Jesus, but I’m not going to argue with you until I gits me some ammunition. After all, you have the Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthoods, and Ah’m just a dumb ol’ hillbilly heathen :slight_smile:

I’ll open a GD thread on this topic over the weekend so we can thrash it out and avoid hijacking this thread any further.

[sub] Now where did I put my Book of Mormon…?[/sub]

Actually, on second thought, I’ll just cede the argument. I’m not as versed in LDS teachings as I would need to be to carry on an intelligent debate.

Sorry about the confusion, gobear. I meant that the LDS teaching is that Jesus says he’s the Son of God.

Putting aside the rudeness in the first clause…

Jesus does NOT say that He is identical with God the Father, but that he was sent by God, is doing God’s will, and has been sent to reconcile humanity with God. He indicates that He is separate from the Father, but that also shares a divine nature with God.

Yes, St. Athanasius was the architect of the Nicene Creed as a weapon against the Arian heresy, but the notion of Jesus sharing God’s nature did not originate with him.

Yet, is this Biblically supported? Like it or not, Hell is usually described in less than glowing terms:

Revelation 20:13-15 :

Luke 16:22-24:

Mark 9:45:

Revelation 14:9:

This doesn’t seem to support that Hell is simple separation from God. It seems to support not only that Hell is eternal torture, but that God – according to Revelation – actively views, and perhaps even participates, in this torture.

That’s why I believe there is something to say that Christianity includes a substantial element of fear. ‘Terrorism’ is an imprecise word, but the fear and threat of violence certainly seems to be present in the Bible.

[Small hijack for a necessary apology]

Gobear – That makes twice within a week that I have been unthinkingly rude towards you. Please accept my sincerest apologies, the insufficient excuse of a raised stress level IRL, and kindly do towards me whatever you personally do that is the equivalent of keeping me in your prayers. I am sorry, and thanks for your anticipated forgiveness.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled religious debate…

Since it says, “forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us…”

we’re cool.

Actually, I don’t think it’s at all clear that this is what most Christians believe. This idea seems to have gained popularity in recent years, but as fluiddruid says, that doesn’t seem to be reflected by various Biblical passages.

Does this constitute torture though? In The Case For Faith, Lee Strobel presents an argument from J.P. Moreland that Hell does not denote active torture, but that the absence of God does result in tremendous torment (the two terms not being synonymous). According to this view, it is a place of great suffering, but not due to torture. I don’t know that I’m prepared to accept Moreland’s argument, but the gist of it can be found here.

Hmm. Interesting, JThunder, this doesn’t make sense to me. How is being outside the presence of God torment?

Think of life here on Earth. Now, examining this, you have two options: either God is present on Earth, or he isn’t.

Imagine that the first is true (as the second would negate the idea – unless you wish to equate Earth with Hell). Atheists are in the presence of God, but yet they do not believe in God. How is this possible? Is God’s presence not noticeable? In that case, why would it hurt not to be in God’s presence? Here are a couple options:

  1. God created people to need God’s presence, and to be deprived it causes pain. This seems to be torture to me (as God designed things to work that way consciously).

  2. Atheists who do not notice God’s presence should not notice God’s lack of presence, and hence, it would not be torment unless God were to reveal himself to the atheist. If it was torment from this point on, it would seem synonymous with torture, as God has chosen to reveal himself or not, and this causes the pain. Couldn’t God, being a loving parent-like figure, choose not to do this? Is there any cause to reveal himself to the unbeliever except to cause this pain?

This seems to me a technicality at best. It is similar to saying that, should I cast a person into a prison in judgement, I am not responsible for their torment (that is, torturing the person) caused by being alone, having no food or water, and so on. Even if that were so, God is God. Omnipotence doesn’t give you a lot of excuses. God can’t say “well, that’s just the way it is” because, by his very nature, God can change the way it is. If the system tortures people, God cannot blame the system, because God created the system, see where I’m going? God must, if omnipotent and omniscient, be an active participant – whether by his action (making people drink sulfur) or by his inaction (letting people suffer in Hell). Thus, Hell must be torture.

This is explained in the second of the links which I presented.

As I said, I’m not prepared to accept that view outright, but I’m not prepared to dismiss it either.

This is where Christians would disagree. He has revealed himself to everyone. Through creation, through prophets, through scripture, through the Bible, and through the Holy Spirit in it’s role in the conviction of sin. The Christian position is that, deep down we all know what’s right. We all chose not to do it. Now you can say that God has not revealed himself sufficiently, that the texts aren’t clear enough, whatever. But all that is doing is setting up a standard of your own that God has to meet. It’s essentially telling the cops that the law was too vague. Sorry, but ignorance is no defense. It’s not about you. Your will is not the center of the universe.

If you insist that that isn’t fair, that it’s rigged, and that you don’t accept any God who demands that you meet his standards and not vice versa, God will, with regret, give you what you want.

Here is how I believe being in Hell (or the absence of God) would be equivilent to eternal torment:

Assume for a moment that God is good. Therefore, being in the presence of God would be being in the process of good.

Evil can be defined as the absence of good. Therefore, being out of the presence of God, you would be surrounded by evil.

Using that definition, I see God’s presence everyday. I would be loathe to be out of it for all eternity.