Being Working Poor Sucks and So Does Hayward

The BBQ Pit
81

So you’re pro-choice then, are you? Then how about respecting other people’s choices, including the one to not have an abortion if you are not so inclined?

Who the hell are you to sit there smugly proselytizing about what choices people should make in order to have a better life by your criteria? And in your perfect little world-view, what should people do who plan out their perfect lives just the perfect way that they perfectly should, and get pregnant at just the perfect time, and then lose their job? Or wind up on unexpected bedrest for 6 months of the pregnancy? Or have one of a myriad of other unplanned crises that affect all of our lives all the time and make things less perfect than we would choose?

Inkleberry sounds, from all evidence, like a good parent who is going to raise a child that will be a credit and a benefit to the world. Fuck you for suggesting that she should have had an abortion simply because right now she’s living in a crummy apartment, and fuck you and everyone else in the world who’s constantly suggesting that only people with nice bank accounts and nice houses should have children. And finally, fuck you and everyone else who self-righteously suggests that people who have made choices that land them in a sub-optimal situation have no right to complain. Like I said, nobody’s life is perfect, and sometimes shit happens, and while yeah, we got ourselves into the situation and yeah, we’re working to fix it, it still feels good to bitch sometimes. So go fuck off with your holier-than-thou attitude. And stop telling people they should have aborted their children. It’s rude.

82

Did you see where I wrote

But setting aside your seeming lack of reading comprehension for a moment, I will comment on the fact that I am more than a little dismayed at the notion of people like you running around and voting who seem to lack such a basic grasp of how society works.

“Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness” is, to be sure, an important value that we hold. The devil, as always, is in the details.

Moreover, this is exactly what I am talking about when I mention callous disregard for others on the part of the conservatives. Societies are not simple and for the most part they are not efficient. The desire to make them so leads, IMO, to this reductive and simplistic thinking that you are displaying. I do get that it makes for good sound-bytes, though, and suspect that we as a society are going to have to suffer quite a bit before we learn that we really do need to look at things in a nuanced way. <Sigh>

83

Well, one of my co-workers, after years and years of trying to conceive and an ectopic pregnancy that almost killed her and about 12 miscarriages and finally being told by the docs that, even with the best modern medicine it was unlikely that she would even conceive again, much less carry a baby to term, found herself pregnant. But she had broken up with her boyfriend (with damn good reason, which I won’t go into here). So she was unwed.

Get an abortion? Are you kidding? If she wanted kids this was probably her one and only chance. For her, it wasn’t a matter of flush and try again later. Given her age and her gyne history this would be her ONLY chance, ever, to have a child. And having at least one child had been something she had always wanted.

She did, by the way, give birth to a healthy baby girl a few months ago.

But that’s just one situation where, even if circumstances are far from ideal, a woman might choose not to abort. You may not agree with her decision, but it certainly wasn’t made lightly.

84

I love it when I have a legitimate problem that I want to vent about, and people say wise and life-changing things like, “Well, you should’ve stayed married/gotten divorced/kept your job/become something different/had another baby/only had one…and it would have ALL BEEN BETTER.” My dad is great at this. Usually so are perfect strangers who have different beliefs. Telling someone she shouldn’t have had a baby is just as offensive as telling her that if she should’ve been a better Christian. (Bet you’ve heard that one before too, eh?)
You know, you do the best you can with what you have. Sometimes life smiles on you and sometimes it doesn’t, but inkleberry, like everyone else, has to deal with the reality of the situation, which does not encompass a world in which she had an abortion instead of a baby. She has a baby; this is the reality of it. She lives where she lives; yet another reality. She wants to improve things and is working to do just that. How is giving her a list of shouldas going to help her? God help some of these people should they ever walk in your shoes, inkleberry.
You’ll be okay in the long run. You’re already doing the things you need to do, it appears. So it might just be a matter of riding this one out for a bit.

Best,
karol

85

Suck my hairy twat.

What I’m bitching about is having moved to a fairly OK place, but slowly watched it go downhill, thanks to about 4 groups of people in the area and a truly crappy propety management company.

You know what else fucking sucks? I got into my profession to help people, and when I do what I really want, and counsel rape victims and people with serious mental health issues, I make jack shit. Sometimes less than that. I’ve done thousands of probono hours with rape victims, going to the hospital in the middle of the night, etc etc. And yet, what ends up being the real money-maker is helping upper-class people learn how to interview better and increase their marketability. The people who need help the most are the least able to pay. I think it’s a fucking crime that this country’s mental health services are absolutely gutted, and mental health professionals are forced to choose between making a living and actually helping people.

You know what else is really fucking pissing me off? The amount of blatent classism I’m seeing on these boards. What, the poor should just fuck off and die, obviously they did something wrong to be in the position they are in? How bloody compassionate. Blaming the victim mentality is a convenient way to try and ward of the anxiety and fear about having it happen to you. But I hate to fucking break it to you, but the majority of families in the US are 2 paychecks away from catastrophe. We don’t pay people living wages, we pay minimum wages.

Yes, invariably I will be out of this situation. Within the next 4 months. We are planning on moving, and are restructuring our finances to do it. We also may have a coveted spot in a great day care program, enabling me to go back to work 30 hours a week. But what about the other families that live here? This complex is a family complex. Every single apartment unit in it has children. How will the families of 2, 3 , 4 or more kids get out? We both have advanced degrees and good job prospects. What about the immigrant family down the hall? What about the single mom on the 2nd floor? What about the family with the nurse mother? Should they get less in terms of safety, cleanliness, or quality housing because they work for a living? And have less education?

Sad to fucking say, but not everyone can afford college. Not everyone can afford to get the skills to work in IT and other higher-pay industries. We NEED people who work in restaurants, gardening, janitors, nurses, teachers, etc. The problem isn’t that they aren’t contributing, the problem here is that we don’t value their contributions and thus totally shaft them. What about the people whose lives revolve around catering to your rich ass? Do you actually ever SEE them? I mean really SEE?

Do you know the name of the guy that cleans your office?

What about the local owner of the gas station?

How about that waitress you had at lunch?

The dry cleaner that made your shirts so nice?

The people that kept your grocery open, clean, stocked, and available for you?

These people matter and the bullshit of “well it’s their choice to live in poverty” really doesn’t fucking add up. You fucking owe the working class a debt of gratitude for taking care of all the details you’d rather not be bothered with. You would not be able to get through one single day without them to keep gas sstations running, fix those washing machines, stock the grocery, attend to the general management of your complex, plumb your pipes, keep your electricity going, and repair your streets.

Again, suck my hairy twat.

86

I know. It’s actually a fairly interesting psychological thing. Blaming the victim is a very convenient and easy way to avoid anxiety. “That happened to THEM because they did something bad. I am too clever to do something bad, and so it’ll never happen to me.” It doesn’t work. But that usually isn’t discovered until something very bad indeed happens to them. And then there is a lot of guilt and shame, because they have internalized the “bad things happened because I was bad” mentality, and then a lot of counseling ensues for the invariable depression.

Yes, which is odious as I am a ;j .

We’ll be fine. We are suing the landlords for breach of contract, and organizing and educating the other tenents here in what their rights are and how not to be bullied by the rental company. We are moving within a few months, certainly. Our son is better now, which hopefully will mean less insane hospital bills of death and lost wages.

Did we make some mistakes? Sure. We really should have investigated our landlords better before we moved in. Now we’re stuck in a bloody lease. Was my son one of them? No.

87

Quick story about managing without money.

Years ago, I took in a foster child.

Due to a loose familial relationship, they couldn’t pay me to take her, but instead offered to catch my electric bill for me.

Six months later, she gets situated back with her mother and I find out they have not payed the billed, but simply deferred it.

Long story short, my electric was off for about 3 weeks.

The Children’s Svc. was well aware of this situation, having actually caused it, and the guy in charge was a friend of mine, and very apologetic about the whole thing.

The weather was nice and I bought a few oil lanterns and we spent a lot of time talking to each other and I read whole books to my daughter at night instead of chapters.

One night the friend from Children’s Svc called to inform me that two of my neighbors had called to report that I was raising children without electric.

The funny part of this is that while I was talking to him, the three children of the neighbors that called were actually at my house playing with my kids. How arrogant can people get??

As a footnote… my kids still look back on the ‘no electric’ as the good ole days.

88

This is my number one biggest beef with the SDMB, and it has been since I started lurking in late 1999. I think we both know why that attitude pervades an internet messageboard, though (computer + net access + free time = homogenous population of privileged ppl).

As for you choosing between helping people and makign a living, I know your life is chaotic with a little young’un, but maybe when the baby is a little older you can take some time to continue your volunteer work? Perhaps even four hours a week on a rape crisis line would help you feel better about yourself. Just a suggestion. My point is that doesn’t have to be everything or nothing - maybe when you’ve got things more sorted out and you’re not feeling pulled in so many directions, you can balance your passion with what you have to do to feed your family. There are so many stories of people who started off doing something casually, and it was a gateway to ultimately doing what they loved, while making a living from it.
Like that woman in a ghetto who started out just giving away PB&J sandwiches to kids she saw rooting through dumpters, whose kindness grew into a wildly successful afterschool program (Oprah gave her a crapload of money a few years back).

89

Yeah, I did see it, which is why I quoted it in my reply to you. Talk about reading comprehension.

Anyway, under the law, FMLA requires that "covered employers must grant an eligible employee up to a total of 12 workweeks of unpaid leave during any 12-month period for one or more of the following reasons:

for the birth and care of the newborn child of the employee [snip]"

http://www.dol.gov/esa/whd/fmla/

It seems to me that the OP’s employer not only provided the required leave, but also went a step further, and paid 50% of her salary to boot. That sounds like a generous benefit, not some obscene violation of her rights. YMM, and probably does, V.

90

You are looking for the 1964 Pregnancy Discrimination Act, part of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Title VII…If an employer offers short term disability insurance, it has to treat pregnancy like any other disability. Moreover, it must be covered by health insurance.

91

milroyj, Now you are just being obtuse. I did not say: “an employer is within his rights not to give the employee any money” which is what you seemed to get out of my post.

I said: “if that employer is not receiving any labor, he is within his rights to not give the employee any money.”

I cannot believe that the distinction between the meaning of the two statements is that subtle, so I have to conclude that you are debating in bad faith.

If you don’t want to respond to any of the points that I am making, that is fine and dandy. I am increasingly coming to the conclusion that you have very little of value to say.

I will point out that your theory of the Ops employer having a generous benefit is technically true, but only when you view it through the filter of it being something that he does not have to do. I am not sure if you are just caught up in this “Letter of the Law” thinking, and are unable to see past that or if you are just being dismissive of all of the other points that folks are making. Some clarification on that last point would be good so that I know if I should pity you or hold you in contempt.

92

The fact that US employers are only required to hold your position for twelve weeks is obscene.

93

Sorry–I knew that from elsewhere on the board, but forgot.

Kung fu lola’s suggestion is very good, too. It’s similar (I think) to the battle I had with myself when I quit teaching special ed: How could I? How dare I just sit back and focus on my baby and family when I could be Saving One Child? :slight_smile: But a very wise friend of mine reminded me–it starts at home. You can save the world later, but right now you have your hands full taking care of your own. I think that’s perfectly fine now, but it took me a hell of a long time to give myself that much leeway. Be kind to yourself about this. You’ve done good deeds, and you will do more good deeds in the future. (I do agree with you regarding mental health care priorities in our society though.)

94

You know what? You can climb down off of your cross, remove your martyr badge, and shove it up your… what was your word? “Hairy twat?” Charming. Anyway, before you climb up on your Everyman’s Hero Pedestal to tell me about how the hard life can be, maybe it would make sense to know a thing or two about me. Trust me, I’ve been there and seen it. And that is precisely why I have no patience for it… people who simply have to have a family of a certain size, people who simply have to live in a certain neighborhood, people who simply have to have cable TV or a certain car, and then gripe about how hard it is to get a leg up. Essentially, people who make it their business to know exactly what their infantile little hearts want, but nothing about the financial discipline it takes to get it. Yes, it’s not fair, but sometimes we still have to make sacrifices to make ends meet. Perhaps I do have more money than I once did, and it’s not because I was born with a silver spoon in my ass, it was because I worked hard, did not fuck off all my 20’s racking up debt and getting worthless advanced degrees, did not pop out a brood of expensive brats before I could afford them, and did not shower myself with worthless geegaws. In fact I still have less luxuries than most famillies of 4 that I know. You know what? I’d like to have a nice fat fucking wide-panel TV just like the family of 4 next door and an SUV to haul my shit around in. But I’m more attached to the concept of having 2 years of savings in the bank, held in reserve against the possibility of a job crisis, ill parent, or baby surprise. I don’t deny that poor people have tough lives, but guess fucking what,** everybody does have some modicum of responsibility and control over their situations**. Perhaps more modest for some people than others, but it does exist. So if you choose not to exercise it, Cry. Me. A. Fucking. River.

That is all. No invitations to sexual gratification forthcoming.

95

I must be obtuse then, because I really don’t see any substantive difference between the two statements.

Do you agree that when an employee is on a 6 or 12 week maternity leave, the employer is not receiving any labor? And that he is within his rights to not give the employee any money?

So where is the disagreement? I don’t get it.

96

I’m amused how quickly this thread turned from, “My neighbourhod sucks and it’s difficult to make a living with a child” to “you should run over your child with your gold-plated Harley”.

97

Natto, your post was a complete non-sequitur. No one is suggesting that people who are irresponsible with their money, or have their priorities screwed up, are entitled to be let off the hook.

While I can’t speak for her, what I saw in inkleberry’s post was an acknowledgement of the Calvinist attitude of “Oh, well the poor are poor because they are lazy/irresponsible/addicts/Kakodeimoneon*” that pervades the SDMB. Guess what, there are poor people who are hardworking, honest, responsible and intelligent. And yet they live and die poor. The American Dream is only as real as the lottery; some people get there, but there are hundreds who don’t. It’s not anyone’s fault, it’s just the way the cookie crumbles, and it doesn’t always follow rhyme and reason. Deal with it.
*It’s a greek word that means “cursed by the Gods”. It means you have a destiny to just be shat upon forever, and therefore shitting upon you is justified and acceptable.

98

I’ve seen all that too. And I’ve also seen the opposite: people who work their asses off, make reasonable choices, and still end up getting shafted for any number of reasons. So far, I haven’t seen much to suggest that inkleberry is squandering her earnings on an extravegant lifestyle; attacking her like that makes you seem like a naive, sanctimonious asshole.

99

Wow, you judgemental fuck. Just so you know, we don’t have any credit cards (I’ve never been a fan of them), or any credit card debit, aren’t exactly looking to move to Beverly Hills, and don’t give a rat’s ass about cable TV.

Until my son was born, I deliberately owned only what could be fit into the back of my hatchback car. I’m a big fan of simplfying things.

Is my advanced degree worthless? Fuck no. I worked my ass off for it, and actually use it for counseling people with some pretyy heavy-duty issues.

You sound jealous more than anything, actually. And you are totally displacing the anger you have towards someone else on me.

Wherever you are, I’m sure it’s probably pretty lonely to be you.

100

The disagreement, I am afraid, is in the very core of what we think is important and what we think society itself should be for. My take on your position is that you are of the belief that if an employer does not have to do something, owing to the way that the law is written, that is justification enough to not do it. My reading of your post, quite simply, is that you are using “The Law” and “The Good” as synonyms when, at least as far as my philosophy is concerned, “The Law” is actually a sub set of “The Good”. Further, the way that you parsed what I said earlier made it sound as if I was stating that employers could simply stop paying employees whenever they felt like it, which is not at all what I was saying. It looked like a phenomenally bizarre take on my post.

You conveniently ignore, or refuse to address all of the points that I an others are making about the perceived problems in the way that things currently work and how terribly shortsighted our current system is. Instead, you seem to be focused on the fact that it is currently legal to do so in an almost fetishistic way.

The Law, as far as I can tell, has never been anything but out imperfect human attempt to codify what we see as just or good. The fact that some behavior on the part of employers happens to currently be legal does not mean that it also happens to be right.

To me, this is such a simple concept that I find it somewhat shocking when I encounter people that do not take it as a given. So, again, I am not claiming that the OP has had anything done to her that is illegal, but I do find what has happened to her to be immoral and an symptom of a very real problem with the way that things are being handled in our society.