It’s been suggested that I pop back in here and clear up something. When I spoke of being endowed, I was not referring to any physical attribute I may or may not possess. I was refering to a spiritual experience. An “Endowment” is an ordinance that takes place in the temple. In this case endowment is used as it would be if you were giving a gift. It’s not a tangible gift but rather a sacred covenant (a special kind of promise between God and I).
Abb
Still a participating member, who teaches, serves in administrative and leadership positions, temple attending, married to a non-member, with only one child. (Who would roll his high school aged eyes right out of his head at being referred to as a child.)
You are right when you say that LDS are not counseled to be baby-making factories.
However, you are saying on one hand that LDS are not taught to “multiply and replenish the earth.” Then in the next sentence you say “It is encouraged to have a family with children.” The link I provided says the Church’s position is both.
As loathe as I am to even attempt to communicate with Rico, I will go ahead and say this, and hopefully someone who really cares about the answer will learn from it:
I was addressing the implication that we are taught to have babies all the time and damn the consequences. We’re not.
So in the absence of conclusive evidence that the LDS church teaches that members should have large families (as opposed to families, which is what the cite says), here’s where we’re at, yes?
LDS teaches that families are a desirable thing.
Culturally, many LDS members have large families, just as many Catholics have them (a difference being that the Catholic church proscribes birth control, whereas LDS does not).
Is that right? And if so, does there remain a General Question here?
Doctrinally, families are encouraged. In practice and teaching, birth control is neither encouraged or forbidden, family size is up to the husband and wife, not the leadership of the church. There is a strong cultral bent towards larger families than are “typical” here in the U.S.
I was raised LDS in the Mormon cultural capital of Provo, Utah. I have since left the church for reasons of my own, which I won’t discuss here.
The LDS church is a living, changing body just like any other religion. Although their doctrine itself does not change or changes at a glacial pace, the culture and emphasis of their teachings do change.
Monty is correct in what he says re: LDS church doctrine. lukaspriest is also correct in what he says re: mormon culture.
If you have any more questions, ask away… I’ll answer whatever you ask (assuming I know the answer or can find it), and as you’ll see from the thread, there are a number of other LDS dopers who are willing to as well.
you’ll have to forgive me, but I simply disagree with you. In COUNTLESS seminary/institute/priesthood/sunday school lessons, we were consistently taught that couples were supposed to have as many children as possible - key word being possible - simple as that. There is a story that I read FIRSTHAND out of one of the manuals in which one of the daughters of the presidents of the church (not sure which one) had just finished delivering like, her 10th kid or something, and asks her dad (the prophet) if she can stop now. He of course, says something wry, to the effect of “If you can have a clean conscience that you know you couldnt have brought any more of Heavenly Father’s sons and daughters down to earth” Sure, there are exceptions, but in general, mormons ARE taught to indeed have lots of children. Sorry if I stated it in a manner which seemed sarcastic. I find it somewhat cute myself.
Also, go and pick up a copy of Mormon Doctrine (which I acknowledge isnt regarded as fully canonical by the church) and you’ll see plenty of hellfire and sulphur preached about the use of contraception/birth control. In other sources too.
I guarantee you can find all KINDS of general conference talks/etc about the “dangers” of dating outside the church. Surely you’ve heard that timeless mormon statistic that says only 1 in 7 spouses in an interfaith-mormon relationship will convert to mormonism. I never said it was a sin, only that its a discouraged. You can’t deny that. That’s what’s taught. It sounds like you have some really cool/liberal church leaders where you’re from, Monty. Here in Idaho, we get the hardcore mormon fundies in droves.
I apologize if I came off as offensive. And yes, you’re right, it just depends on what ward/stake you’re in and what kind of members you’re surrounded by. Regardless, those raw doctrines are indeed there.
you’ll have to forgive me, but I simply disagree with you. In COUNTLESS seminary/institute/priesthood/sunday school lessons, we were consistently taught that couples were supposed to have as many children as possible - key word being possible - simple as that. There is a story that I read FIRSTHAND out of one of the manuals in which one of the daughters of the presidents of the church (not sure which one) had just finished delivering like, her 10th kid or something, and asks her dad (the prophet) if she can stop now. He of course, says something wry, to the effect of “If you can have a clean conscience that you know you couldnt have brought any more of Heavenly Father’s sons and daughters down to earth” Sure, there are exceptions, but in general, mormons ARE taught to indeed have lots of children. Sorry if I stated it in a manner which seemed sarcastic. I find it somewhat cute myself.
Also, go and pick up a copy of Mormon Doctrine (which I acknowledge isnt regarded as fully canonical by the church) and you’ll see plenty of hellfire and sulphur preached about the use of contraception/birth control. In other sources too.
I guarantee you can find all KINDS of general conference talks/etc about the “dangers” of dating outside the church. Surely you’ve heard that timeless mormon statistic that says only 1 in 7 spouses in an interfaith-mormon relationship will convert to mormonism. I never said it was a sin, only that its a discouraged. You can’t deny that. That’s what’s taught. It sounds like you have some really cool/liberal church leaders where you’re from, Monty. Here in Idaho, we get the hardcore mormon fundies in droves.
I apologize if I came off as offensive. And yes, you’re right, it just depends on what ward/stake you’re in and what kind of members you’re surrounded by. Regardless, those raw doctrines are indeed there. Perhaps you havent been exposed to them? I dunno.
you’ll have to forgive me, but I simply disagree with you. In COUNTLESS seminary/institute/priesthood/sunday school lessons, we were consistently taught that couples were supposed to have as many children as possible - key word being possible - simple as that. There is a story that I read FIRSTHAND out of one of the manuals in which one of the daughters of the presidents of the church (not sure which one) had just finished delivering like, her 10th kid or something, and asks her dad (the prophet) if she can stop now. He of course, says something wry, to the effect of “If you can have a clean conscience that you know you couldnt have brought any more of Heavenly Father’s sons and daughters down to earth” Sure, there are exceptions, but in general, mormons ARE taught to indeed have lots of children. Sorry if I stated it in a manner which seemed sarcastic. I find it somewhat cute myself.
Also, go and pick up a copy of Mormon Doctrine (which I acknowledge isnt regarded as fully canonical by the church) and you’ll see plenty of hellfire and sulphur preached about the use of contraception/birth control. In other sources too.
I guarantee you can find all KINDS of general conference talks/etc about the “dangers” of dating outside the church. Surely you’ve heard that timeless mormon statistic that says only 1 in 7 spouses in an interfaith-mormon relationship will convert to mormonism. I never said it was a sin, only that its a discouraged. You can’t deny that. That’s what’s taught. It sounds like you have some really cool/liberal church leaders where you’re from, Monty. Here in Idaho, we get the hardcore mormon fundies in droves.
I apologize if I came off as offensive. And yes, you’re right, it just depends on what ward/stake you’re in and what kind of members you’re surrounded by. Regardless, those raw doctrines are indeed there. Perhaps you havent been exposed to them? I dunno.
Actually you are misquoting the scripture. From the King James verison, it reads thus:
(Italics mine)
John’s curse is given to any that might tamper with the words of his prophecy, so it applies to his revelations, not the entire Bible or even the entire New Testament.
What you heard in institute class or a group discussion is only doctrine when what is being taught is actually scripture. The stories and testimonials to the blessings of large families are not doctrine they are teaching and practice. There is a difference between doctrines, teachings and practice. Doctrines are the same across the church all over the world and are scripturally supported. Remember, this is a lay ministry, other than at conferences the speaker or teacher is just your average member in the next chair, not nessecarily a scriptorian trained extensively or particularly skilled in how to teach the doctrines of the church and his or her prepare words have not been vetted by the presiding authorities of the church. This means that sometimes we get really good teachers who do a good job of teaching doctrine and sometimes we get willing teachers with less experience than testimony, who because they are human and flawed, might get doctrine, practices, teachings, and testimonies mixed up.
The book Mormon Doctrine by Bruce or McConkie, while it does contain some doctrine when he teaches directly from the scriptures, when taken as a whole is not doctrine, most especially when he adds his personal interpretations and conclusions. To quote the author
The work was not commissioned or requested by the presiding authorities of the church, nor was it endorsed as doctrine by the presiding authorities after it was published.
The church curriculum is available online at www.lds.org under >
The curriculum is under >Gospel Library > Church Publications > Curriculum.
Sorry about the typos too. I am among the many flawed individuals of the church. As evidence I present the above misspelling of version, the typo with regards to the author of Mormon Doctrine is Bruce R. McConkie, not Bruce or McConkie, coding error and premature post.
I see your intent isn’t offensive, lukas. What I was talking about is where you said we’re admonished not to date or marry outside the church. Since the church actually conducts marriages between LDS and non-LDS, that just can’t be. OTOH, there is, as mentioned above, a huge cultural thing going on where one’s family might collectively have a stroke if someone even mentions that a non-LDS just happens to be pretty. That’s not restricted to Mormons. I’m a convert, so my mother’s not a member. However, I recall once during my teens when I mentioned that one Mexican actress looked nice. Mom ranted and raved for over half an hour!
I also was addressing, like I said, where you seemed to imply that we’re taught to pop out babies all the time.
Just like any other culture, there are those within that culture who confuse one aspect of that culture with another. An example I will give you is a little experiment I conducted (unscienetifically) when I was in the Philippines. I asked a number of people, educated people, what the official religion of the Philippines is. Over the years, only two answered correctly. The rest all said, “Roman Catholic.” You see, they were confusing a predominant attitude with a fact.
I asked my co-worker who is mormon and this is his response in a nutshell.
Typically they have large families for various reasons:
a) We believes families to be Eternal…so we will have same relationships beyond mortality
b) We were commanded to do so…and as far as I know it has never been with drawn
this is because we believe we were all spirit children in heavenly Fathers presences,
and were thus send here to earth to gain a body and become more like our Father in heaven.
So…lots of spirit children still waiting to come down.
We were asked to procreate, it has not been with drawn…we discourage birth control
but do believe that there should be planning involved with having kids….also, we should respect
a women’s ability to handle so many children…some can have many and handle it well…some can not
all people are different…and we need to be able to provide for them all….we are big on that.
No…no disdain…but marriage is very important to us…we do not believe we can accomplish those
things we need to accomplish in this life without getting married. Also the relationship is meant to be an eternal one…
Mormons are encourage to marry early…this keeps them out of trouble…and
bad habits don’t set in, ….also they mature through the responsibility.
It is not sacrilegious to marry an atheist, but there are certain Temple covenants that can not
be made if you are not both members. To us these are very scared covenants and most
are encouraged to marry within the church….there are many part member families…this is hard sometimes
because its hard to live the doctrine without the support of your mate.