Believers in a triune God, why does there have to be an interscessor?

[monavis]

I know that at various functions some people pray in Jesus’s name because He was quoted as saying," ask the Father anything in my name and he will grant it to you". This doesn’t make sense to me,if the Father,Son and Spirit are one. The New Testament also says that Jesus felt being God was nothing to cling to.

I am trying to understand why one could not just pray to God, that should take in all three persons.

I also have a hard time understanding why Jesus would have to pray, then say if it is your will,when if he was one with the Father he should know the Father’s will. Also why his prayers were not always answered.

Why would the Holy spirit have to be sent by Jesus if the persons of the Trinity are equally God?

Monavis

[raindog]

This should be quite interesting…

[Contrapuntal]

@monavis

Why would the Holy spirit have to be sent by Jesus if the persons of the Trinity are equally God?

It’s a mystery.

[Mangetout]

It sounds a bit like you’re asking why the three persons of the Christian Trinity are different from each other, in some ways. I know it’s not a particularly deep or satisfying answer, but they just are - it’s a fundamental attribute of their nature, rather than something they chose to set up.

[raindog]

@Mangetout

It sounds a bit like you’re asking why the three persons of the Christian Trinity are different from each other, in some ways. I know it’s not a particularly deep or satisfying answer, but they just are - it’s a fundamental attribute of their nature, rather than something they chose to set up.

The only problem, of course, is that the biblical basis for it is so thin as to be…well…a mystery, the Jews of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob didn’t buy it, Christ never said it, his Apostles didn’t practice it, it was unknown to the church in the 300+ years after Christ died, and was finally established at a conference presided by a non-Christian.

Deeply unsatisfying to say the least.

[Chief_Pedant]

@monavis

I know that at various functions some people pray in Jesus’s name because He was quoted as saying," ask the Father anything in my name and he will grant it to you". This doesn’t make sense to me,if the Father,Son and Spirit are one. The New Testament also says that Jesus felt being God was nothing to cling to.

I am trying to understand why one could not just pray to God, that should take in all three persons.

I also have a hard time understanding why Jesus would have to pray, then say if it is your will,when if he was one with the Father he should know the Father’s will. Also why his prayers were not always answered.

Why would the Holy spirit have to be sent by Jesus if the persons of the Trinity are equally God?

Monavis

Internal logical consistency is missing from any theology that was pieced together over time by various parties after the fact. In this case the event that needed 'splaining was the arrival on earth of a figure who needed to be absolute Deity (Jesus) but who was not Jehovah God. Upon Jesus’s physical departure a void needed to be filled for the newly-developed Personal God.

And so was born, theologically, the Mystery of the Trinity.

“Mystery” in theology means that it makes no sense but must nevertheless be true.

On the ‘if it is your will’ front, the shortest explanation is that since a believer obviously does not get everything they want, there must be some sort of assumed qualifier to all requests. That assumed qualifier is that God knows best. Another Mystery…there are lots of 'em.

[Zoe]

I know that at various functions some people pray in Jesus’s name because He was quoted as saying," ask the Father anything in my name and he will grant it to you". This doesn’t make sense to me,if the Father,Son and Spirit are one.

<snip>

I am trying to understand why one could not just pray to God, that should take in all three persons.

What I post here is just my understandings and doesn’t represent every Christian’s take on things.

There are three parts of the “God-head.” They can and do sometimes serve different purposes. I’ve always thought of Jesus as the human part of Jesus Christ and the Christ as the God the Son part of the God-head.

We pray “…in Jesus’ name” because the sacrifice of his life as a human being redeemed us in the eyes of the Father.

The New Testament also says that Jesus felt being God was nothing to cling to.

Could you be more specific here?

I also have a hard time understanding why Jesus would have to pray, then say if it is your will,when if he was one with the Father he should know the Father’s will. Also why his prayers were not always answered.

At that time, part of him was still fully human. Perhaps it was that part of him that affirmed that he was uncertain of the Father’s will, but wished to follow it. I think that his prayers were answered. The wishes of the human Jesus were not granted. The Father’s will was not in agreement . The answer was an obvious no

Why would the Holy spirit have to be sent by Jesus if the persons of the Trinity are equally God?

Because Jesus the Christ ascended into heaven. The Holy Spirit is among us.

I would like to add that I don’t always think that the human being Jesus was always perfect. In his role as God the Son, he was. But since he was fully human, I think maybe he made mistakes. I think many or most Christians might find that blasphemous.

[Mangetout]

@Zoe

I would like to add that I don’t always think that the human being Jesus was always perfect. In his role as God the Son, he was. But since he was fully human, I think maybe he made mistakes. I think many or most Christians might find that blasphemous.

I’d say this idea is explicitly contradicted by passages in the Bible, for example; Heb 4:15 says he was tempted in every way like us, but was without sin, but I’m not going to try to burn you at the stake, or tell you what you should believe.

[Zoe]

MangetoutI’d say this idea is explicitly contradicted by passages in the Bible.

And I would say that lots of Biblical passages are explicitly contradicted by other Biblical passages. (shrug)

As I’ve said many times, not all Christians are alike.

[FriarTed]

@Zoe

And I would say that lots of Biblical passages are explicitly contradicted by other Biblical passages. (shrug)

But not that passage.

Now for my take- while I do believe in three eternal distinct Persons in the One Godhead, as to the Why of the OP, I’ll use what is called “the Modalist doctrine”-
the Father is that aspect of God Who is above & beyond & outside Creation, the Son is that aspect of God Who came to us as the man Jesus Christ, the Spirit is that aspect of God Who dwells within those who covenant with God and Who deals with those He is calling into covenant with Him.

[Contrapuntal]

@FriarTed

But not that passage.

Now for my take- while I do believe in three eternal distinct Persons in the One Godhead, as to the Why of the OP, I’ll use what is called “the Modalist doctrine”-
the Father is that aspect of God Who is above & beyond & outside Creation, the Son is that aspect of God Who came to us as the man Jesus Christ, the Spirit is that aspect of God Who dwells within those who covenant with God and Who deals with those He is calling into covenant with Him.

So God has three aspects, all equal, and humans who covenant with God have an aspect of God within them? Are these humans able to do any of the things that the other aspects of God can do, such as stopping the sun in the sky, parting the Red Sea, raising the dead, etc.?

[ethelbert]

My take on the Trinity is that it solved a purely practical problem. If Jesus was God, then how could he pray to God? As far as the Holy Ghost is concerned, that has never made much sense to me. Whenever discussion turns to the Holy Ghost, I think of Greaser’s Palace .

Who is that guy?

[Captain_Amazing]

@the raindog

it was unknown to the church in the 300+ years after Christ died, and was finally established at a conference presided by a non-Christian.

Well, that part isn’t true. The trinity was being talked about, at the latest, in the second century. For instance, Justin Martyr said, in his First Apology:

We will prove that we worship [Jesus] reasonably; for we have learned that he is the Son of the true God himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third.

And then, in the 3rd century, Tertullian talks a lot about the trinity in his “Against Praxeas” (Praxeas was a member of an anti-trinitarian movement)

We do indeed believe that there is only one God, but we believe that under this dispensation, or, as we say, oikonomia, there is also a Son of this one only God, his Word, who proceeded from him and through whom all things were made and without whom nothing was made…. We believe he was sent down by the Father, in accord with his own promise, the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, the sanctifier of the faith of those who believe in the Father and the Son, and in the Holy Spirit…Keep always in mind the rule of faith which I profess and by which I bear witness that the Father and the Son and the Spirit are inseparable from each other, and then you will understand what is meant by it. Observe now that I say the Father is other, the Son is other, and the Spirit is other. This statement is wrongly understood by every uneducated or perversely disposed individual, as if it meant diversity and implied by that diversity a separation of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit

The “Conference presided by a non-Christian” is undoubtedly the Council of Nicea. But the Council of Nicea didn’t invent the idea of the trinity…it condemned Arianism, which was anti-Trinitarian, but the Trinitarian doctrine was already well established at that time.

[Monty]

At least one denomination specifies that each member of the Godhead is, in fact, a different individual.

[kanicbird]

OK I’ll give this a shot. We humans can not come to the Father due to our sins. Our sins separate us from our Creator. We are basically in a state of claiming ‘godship’ on our own, and as such would share the fate of Satan and his demonic forces, who have done likewise (and are condemned). So trying to go to the Father directly is trying to come to him as a equal but competitive ‘god’ - which is not a good place to be for a human even against the weakest demon, not to mention the Father of Creation.

Due to the Father’s sense of righteousness, He will not accept surrender to Him, you are basically a enemy of God and will be subject to His wrath.

Jesus was sent in this world to allow us the opportunity to reconcile this. Allow us to come back to God and put the situation right 'I will be their God and they will be My people". By Jesus never sinning He was wrongly put to death by the world. This violates the Father’s sense of righteousness, so to make things right Jesus was resurrected is now superior to the world (as the world has nothing to offer Jesus to make up for His wrongful death). As such He can accept anyone in the world who comes to Him and surrenders to Him.

So when we pray we do so through our King Jesus and in His name, as He is the worthy one who has overcome the world.

The gift of the Holy Spirit, or better for this discussion, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, is God actually in us. It is many things, but for the sake of the OP it is to help us serve Jesus in this world. It allows us to know the will of God, what the Lord wants us to do to advance His kingdom on earth. Unlike Satanic forces and forces of man, ‘God is one’ and God acts as a single entity, weather that is directly from the Father, from Jesus, from a angel, or from a follower of Christ following God’s Spirit inside him, or from the Holy Spirit Himself.

Practically speaking, it seems like the more you know the more you are expected to do. If you don’t know God that well and have a really critical situation it seems like a cry to ‘God’ will usually be heard (actually God does hear everything, but I’m talking about accepting it as a prayer), with the prayers going to the correct parts. As you know more and after the indwelling of the Holy Spirit you just start doing things in the way Jesus instructed as you know it is proper.

Jesus prayed to talk to His Father. Did you ever talk to your earthly father?

[monavis]

@Mangetout

It sounds a bit like you’re asking why the three persons of the Christian Trinity are different from each other, in some ways. I know it’s not a particularly deep or satisfying answer, but they just are - it’s a fundamental attribute of their nature, rather than something they chose to set up.

No, I am suggesting that they are supposed to be one,all with the same powers. yet Jesus is quoted as saying,“If you ask the Father anything in my name he will grant it to you” Why couldn’t he just give it himself. He was supposed to be God from the very beginning.

Why should they wait until Jesus returned to Heaven to send the Holy Spirit? Couldn’t the Spirit know that he was to come and teach all things?

Isn’t all their nature God?

Monavis

[monavis]

@Zoe

<snip>

What I post here is just my understandings and doesn’t represent every Christian’s take on things.

There are three parts of the “God-head.” They can and do sometimes serve different purposes. I’ve always thought of Jesus as the human part of Jesus Christ and the Christ as the God the Son part of the God-head.

We pray “…in Jesus’ name” because the sacrifice of his life as a human being redeemed us in the eyes of the Father.

Could you be more specific here?

At that time, part of him was still fully human. Perhaps it was that part of him that affirmed that he was uncertain of the Father’s will, but wished to follow it. I think that his prayers were answered. The wishes of the human Jesus were not granted. The Father’s will was not in agreement . The answer was an obvious no

Because Jesus the Christ ascended into heaven. The Holy Spirit is among us.

I would like to add that I don’t always think that the human being Jesus was always perfect. In his role as God the Son, he was. But since he was fully human, I think maybe he made mistakes. I think many or most Christians might find that blasphemous.

How could Jesus be fully Human if he only had female chromosomes? The only way he could be fully human and fully God would be if God and Man were the same thing, else he would be only half human and half God, since he had no male parent.

Monavis

[monavis]

@Zoe

<snip>

What I post here is just my understandings and doesn’t represent every Christian’s take on things.

There are three parts of the “God-head.” They can and do sometimes serve different purposes. I’ve always thought of Jesus as the human part of Jesus Christ and the Christ as the God the Son part of the God-head.

We pray “…in Jesus’ name” because the sacrifice of his life as a human being redeemed us in the eyes of the Father.

Could you be more specific here?

At that time, part of him was still fully human. Perhaps it was that part of him that affirmed that he was uncertain of the Father’s will, but wished to follow it. I think that his prayers were answered. The wishes of the human Jesus were not granted. The Father’s will was not in agreement . The answer was an obvious no

Because Jesus the Christ ascended into heaven. The Holy Spirit is among us.

I would like to add that I don’t always think that the human being Jesus was always perfect. In his role as God the Son, he was. But since he was fully human, I think maybe he made mistakes. I think many or most Christians might find that blasphemous.

How does this explain that Jesus said," The Father and I are one",“If you have seen me you have seen the father,” and He Prayed that they may be one even as they were?

Monavis

[monavis]

@kanicbird

OK I’ll give this a shot. We humans can not come to the Father due to our sins. Our sins separate us from our Creator. We are basically in a state of claiming ‘godship’ on our own, and as such would share the fate of Satan and his demonic forces, who have done likewise (and are condemned). So trying to go to the Father directly is trying to come to him as a equal but competitive ‘god’ - which is not a good place to be for a human even against the weakest demon, not to mention the Father of Creation.

Due to the Father’s sense of righteousness, He will not accept surrender to Him, you are basically a enemy of God and will be subject to His wrath.

Jesus was sent in this world to allow us the opportunity to reconcile this. Allow us to come back to God and put the situation right 'I will be their God and they will be My people". By Jesus never sinning He was wrongly put to death by the world. This violates the Father’s sense of righteousness, so to make things right Jesus was resurrected is now superior to the world (as the world has nothing to offer Jesus to make up for His wrongful death). As such He can accept anyone in the world who comes to Him and surrenders to Him.

So when we pray we do so through our King Jesus and in His name, as He is the worthy one who has overcome the world.

The gift of the Holy Spirit, or better for this discussion, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, is God actually in us. It is many things, but for the sake of the OP it is to help us serve Jesus in this world. It allows us to know the will of God, what the Lord wants us to do to advance His kingdom on earth. Unlike Satanic forces and forces of man, ‘God is one’ and God acts as a single entity, weather that is directly from the Father, from Jesus, from a angel, or from a follower of Christ following God’s Spirit inside him, or from the Holy Spirit Himself.

Practically speaking, it seems like the more you know the more you are expected to do. If you don’t know God that well and have a really critical situation it seems like a cry to ‘God’ will usually be heard (actually God does hear everything, but I’m talking about accepting it as a prayer), with the prayers going to the correct parts. As you know more and after the indwelling of the Holy Spirit you just start doing things in the way Jesus instructed as you know it is proper.

Jesus prayed to talk to His Father. Did you ever talk to your earthly father?

Yes, I talked to my earthly father, but he and I were not one, we were separate beings, neither of us knew all things as a Father God should know, and there would be no need for prayer if we both knew what the other needed or wanted.

We could only guess what the other wanted or what was best, because we couldn’t for-know the outcome.
Monavis

[Omegaman]

For me, it is because Jesus came to this earth to reconcile humans with God. He also gave us the Holy Spirit to guide us in our endeavors to be with Him. Without these two factors he is as an ant is to us. Something so foreign that It can not be understood. Be sure that without both of these I could not have a connection with God. He is the Father. Jesus is his Son and the Holy Ghost is *they’re * power within us. All of them have touched me and directed my actions upon this world. My biggest problem has been recognizing when that has occurred. My resolve is as hard as a diamond. I try to think of it as such as a diamond is a thing that is formed as a result of the greatest pressure and is a thing of great beauty and is valued by all upon this world. He made that through His will. As Kanicbird once told me forgiveness is already mine and all the things I endeavor to do are icing on the cake still I can’t help but do them. It is something that has been given to me as well as the will to fight Satan. For all the love I have for people it is a great measure more of hate that I have for that evil fucker. It is said that no man will defeat him on this earth, but God please let me have at least the opportunity to do so. That bitch knows what I have for him and although he has sent his angels to oppress me, let his weak, foul, scummy ass come on and get some. I’ll scull f%$k you with a tent stake, bitch. So sorry if this offends the tender among you but he and I have business unfinished and I WONT F@#*KING REST until it is completed. Please continue with you’re regularly scheduled programing.