Believers in a triune God, why does there have to be an interscessor?

Great Debates
21

OK I’ll give this a shot. We humans can not come to the Father due to our sins. Our sins separate us from our Creator. We are basically in a state of claiming ‘godship’ on our own, and as such would share the fate of Satan and his demonic forces, who have done likewise (and are condemned). So trying to go to the Father directly is trying to come to him as a equal but competitive ‘god’ - which is not a good place to be for a human even against the weakest demon, not to mention the Father of Creation.

Due to the Father’s sense of righteousness, He will not accept surrender to Him, you are basically a enemy of God and will be subject to His wrath.

Jesus was sent in this world to allow us the opportunity to reconcile this. Allow us to come back to God and put the situation right 'I will be their God and they will be My people". By Jesus never sinning He was wrongly put to death by the world. This violates the Father’s sense of righteousness, so to make things right Jesus was resurrected is now superior to the world (as the world has nothing to offer Jesus to make up for His wrongful death). As such He can accept anyone in the world who comes to Him and surrenders to Him.

So when we pray we do so through our King Jesus and in His name, as He is the worthy one who has overcome the world.

The gift of the Holy Spirit, or better for this discussion, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, is God actually in us. It is many things, but for the sake of the OP it is to help us serve Jesus in this world. It allows us to know the will of God, what the Lord wants us to do to advance His kingdom on earth. Unlike Satanic forces and forces of man, ‘God is one’ and God acts as a single entity, weather that is directly from the Father, from Jesus, from a angel, or from a follower of Christ following God’s Spirit inside him, or from the Holy Spirit Himself.

Practically speaking, it seems like the more you know the more you are expected to do. If you don’t know God that well and have a really critical situation it seems like a cry to ‘God’ will usually be heard (actually God does hear everything, but I’m talking about accepting it as a prayer), with the prayers going to the correct parts. As you know more and after the indwelling of the Holy Spirit you just start doing things in the way Jesus instructed as you know it is proper.

Jesus prayed to talk to His Father. Did you ever talk to your earthly father?

22

Expanding on my about post, we pray through Jesus because we are coming to the Father as a servant of Jesus, not on our own behalf.

It is clear that Jesus didn’t know everything as a man. He asked ‘who touched me’ when the woman touched His robe and was healed. Jesus said no one knows the hour of my second coming, not even the angels, only the Father. As man we have only but a piece of the total picture that the Father wants to show us, we follow the Fathers instruction on faith that it is His will for the Greater glory of God.

So to use the earthly father/son relationship, you could take a father and his very young child son. The father basically controls the entire life if the son (usually till the son is old enough). The father says to the son let the Dr. stick that pointy thing in your arm. The son says father why, that will hurt me. The father says it will hurt a little but help you far more.
(note to mods - Sorry for the double post, something didn’t update and I was getting a old version of this thread.)

23

God created Satan and must have known (If it is true that he knows all things) that Satan would rebel and it was the choice of God to let a demon harm His children, to me that makes no sense. If a human father acted this way he would be put in jail.

To my way of thinking; a good father would not give his child anything that would harm him nor keep anything that would be for his benifit away from him. I knew my children needed food,clothing,etc. so they didn’t have to ask me for them or beg and get others to beg for them. A human father can just guess or go by instinct ,God should go by His knowledge.

I cannot say I was the best parent in the world but if I knew for sure something could happen to my child by some monster I created (or even some toy etc.) I would not create it. As an example: If I was Mrs Hiltler and knew the evil he would do I would make sure I did not concieve such a being.

If Jesus was both God and Man at the same time then he would have all the knowledge he needed. If he and the Father are one than there was no need for him to pray.

Are you stating that while on earth he was just man, but then went back and became God?

Monavis

24

A human father would be put into jail because he doesn’t have perfect knowledge and can’t make such a decision in a way that he knows is for the greater good additionally there is authority over the earthly father, including the heavenly Father.

The Father created all things, including Satan because it is for the greater good, and the outcome is already determined at the moment the Father put these things into motion and that outcome is to maximize the glory of God.

For a Christian this is where faith plays it’s biggest part. It’s not the issue of accepting that there is a ‘god’ that gives us trouble most of the time, most would say that they know that there is, it’s not a question of faith, God is! God has given followers of Jesus all the proof they would ever need.

The hard part, the walk by faith is doing the will of the Father, to trust Him, to trust you understand what he is saying to us, even when what the Father wants done doesn’t make any sense. This is the blind faith issue, and one that most servants of Jesus have the most trouble with.

In order for God to be one, Jesus and the Holy Spirit appeared to have totally submitted to the will of the Father before time. As such Jesus knew what to do as lead by the Holy Spirit, but didn’t know why. Well Jesus knew that it was for the greater glory of God, but when God’s Spirit lead him to places He did not know the reason until it was revealed at the proper time. Praying is a way to receive diving revelation, it is a method to get that information from the Father. It was always meant for Jesus to pray, the Father knew Jesus would and what would be revealed to Him at those times. Jesus knew to follow the Holy Spirit no matter where it leads and had total faith that it would be the will of the Father.

It appears like Jesus had to take a step down in glory till he suffered on earth as part of the will of the Father:

This step down may have been to that of unfallen man.

25

This entire thread is an interesting little microcosm of how theology evolves.

That any of theology can be taken seriously when one can read through the thread and watch diverse opinions on the OP’s very simple title question amazes me.

This is not meant as either a hijack or a slam.

But isn’t the straightforward answer that Christians have no idea why there needs to be an intercessor, or why there is a trinity at all?

Nor have they any consistency among their guesses, nor have they any authority to which they can plead, except what they have freely chosen from a menu of authorities. And those authorities in turn either doped it out de novo or accepted it from their peers and ancestors…

I look at these types of threads and I think: it is obviously turtles all the way down.

26

Is that why you post ridiculing words so quickly – to discourage responses? Obviously you weren’t going to provide answers to the questions in the OP.

If the OP was posing a set of serious questions, whose arguments were you attacking? The questions hadn’t been answered when you attacked in Post #6. You surely are champing at the bit to shred Christians – to the point that what you say doesn’t make a lot of sense. Don’t let hostile, even militant, atheism get in the way of the expression of clear thinking.

monavis, I’m sorry not to answer your questions. I’m just not that concerned with providing answers that may not be right anyway.

27

If Jesus stepped down to do the will of His father then had to know what the Father’s will was,yet He asked to have the burden lifted unless it was the Father’s will. Jesus is quoted as stating that He and the father are one,and if they saw Him they have seen the Father.

He didn’t seem to be guided by the Holy Spirit but had to send the spirit after His death.

Didn’t the Father know ahead of time that men would fall? Why did he wait for thousands of years to pass, before sending His son, (who was one with him)The Father also knew that Satan would fall, unless the Father is not all knowing as has been taught about Him.

monavis

28

I have one question, monavis- and I have wondered this every time you start one of these threads- do you really want to know what Christians believe and why? Or are you just trying to make a point as to how convoluted the whole thing is?

And it is convoluted, I will grant- that doesn’t affect one bit whether or not it’s
true.

29

While those Christians of a Calvinist bent might agree with you about the outcome being determined at the moment of creation, others would not. Certainly God is omniscient, but then there’s free will to be factored into the situation. Satan freely *chose *to become what he is. Just because God knew what Satan would choose doesn’t mean He caused him to make that choice.

OK, sorry, I know that’s a simplistic explanation of why some Christian sects embrace the idea of predestination while other reject it entirely, but in a nutshell, that’s it.

30

The inference I take from your post is that there is a correct answer out there, and that I sidetracked the clear thinking that would have come up with it.

In GD, if the answer is that there is no answer, it is not an attack to point that out. I consider my first answer reasonable:

"Internal logical consistency is missing from any theology that was pieced together over time by various parties after the fact. In this case the event that needed 'splaining was the arrival on earth of a figure who needed to be absolute Deity (Jesus) but who was not Jehovah God. Upon Jesus’s physical departure a void needed to be filled for the newly-developed Personal God.

And so was born, theologically, the Mystery of the Trinity.

“Mystery” in theology means that it makes no sense but must nevertheless be true."

And accurate. And informative, even, to the naive, assuming that the answer to Friar Ted’s question of the OP is that it is really trying to get at what Christians believe and why.

Should you disagree with it, or have alternate evidence as to how theology (Christian and otherwise) arises, I’d love to have those notions included as part of the debate.

31

Whether or not God caused it, if the act was predetermined, then Satan had no choice in the matter, and therefore lacked free will.

32

Actually, it does. If an omniscient being makes someone, it will know even before it starts exactly what that being will do. If God is omniscient, then everything that has ever happened, down to smallest detail, was foreseen, expected, and planned by God. Satan chose to do what he did because he was made that way; if he’d been made differently, he’d have chosen something else, and it was God’s decision which way he made Satan. “Free choice” has nothing to do with it, since God chose before Satan existed what “free choice” Satan would make. That’s the logical implication of a being’s creator being omniscient.

And it extends to the rest of the universe; if God is omniscient, he chose what would happen, everywhere, and there’s no such thing as a “free choice”; God already made it for you, billions of years ago. For that matter, God’s omniscience rules out random chance as well.

33

Division of labour.

34

Yes, I don’t see what you are asking here, if anything. Jesus was guided by the Holy Spirit, and He knew it would lead to a horrible death, Jesus asked if he could be pardoned from this ‘let this cup pass by me’ unless it is Your will Father - his prayer was answered - it was the Father’s will that was done and Jesus requested, so the cup could not pass (cup refers to torment and wrath).

This is not true.

Jesus was give the Holy Spirit right after he was baptized by John the Baptist.

And the Holy Spirit lead Jesus right away (2 verses after)

What I think you are talking about is when Jesus gave the gift of the Holy Spirit to His followers.

Yes the Father does know all, the simple and unsatisfying answer is it produces the best possible results for the glory of God. The details He has not revealed to me.

Have to get to the rest later

35

**If **it was predetermined. But most (to my knowledge) branches of Christianity believe that although God is omniscient, we (and Satan) can freely choose whether or not to accept or reject God, good, truth, etc.

36

Continuing:

I wanted to go a bit further here. To me what you posted above is by far the hardest part of the Christian walk. The blind faith acceptance that the Father knows what He is doing even when we see death and destruction around us or is very painful, and to follow where the Holy Spirit is leading though it may make absolutely no sense to you.

Yes Satan freely chose evil, and Yes God the Father knew he would. The Father knew that Satan would temp His Son, He knew that His Son would be victorious and Satan would soon after stand condemned, He knows that Satan will be bound for almost 1000 years, He knows the exact time, he knows when Satan would be set free only to be thrown into the lake of fire shortly after.

We have the predestined vs free will debate here before, my take on it is with God both are possible, actually both coexist.

I agree with this the Father knew what Satan would do before time itself.

This is where you start to make a jump of logic. Just because God made Satan how Satan is does not preclude that Satan has free will. The rest of your post suffers from this illogical leap.

37

The Roman Catholic Church, the Orthodox churches, and most (I think) Protestant denominations (excepting those with a Calvinist bent) would disagree with you. They would tell you that God is omniscient, but that He endowed man (and angels, including Lucifer) with free will. God knows what choice a man (or an angel) will make, but He does’t cause that man to make that choice.

Predestination as a tenet of faith didn’t crop up until the Reformation. Before that, it had popped up once in a while, but had always been condemned and refuted by the Church. But, starting with Martin Luther, and attaining its strongest form with Melancthon and Calvin, it became the official teaching of some Protestant denominations. Still, I’d bet that a majority of Christians do not believe in predestination.

You obviously do (or would if you were a Christian – I’m not sure what your religious beliefs, if any, are). OK, fine. I’m not making a statement of personal belief here, and certainly not proselytizing for any denomination. But I think you’re mistaken if you say that the idea of an omniscient God necessarily leads to a belief in predestination.

38

Saying something will happen in the future does not preclude free will.

39

They disagree with me because their beliefs are irrational; they contradict each other, and many make little sense in themselves. Free will doesn’t make sense on it’s own, and less when you claim that the “free willed” being was made by something that knew what would happen beforehand. That’s like claiming I killed someone of my own free will, after you fired me at them out of a catapult.

Atheist, antitheist. I don’t believe in God, and I oppose him if he exists.

Assuming we were created by a God, I’d hardly think the results add “glory” to him. Quite the opposite; God is obviously either uncaring, malignant, or incompetent by that standard, none of which is glorious… And your statement is also a good argument against following God, I might add.

Knowing that it will does, however. If God knows beforehand what Satan would do, then Satan has no more “free will” ( whatever that is ) than a wind up toy. If God makes Satan one way, he rebels; he makes Satan another way, he doesn’t; the choice is God’s, not Satan’s.

40

You find the questions simple, but provide no answer. The question is not simple to a believer. I don’t even agree with the use of the term intercessor, but responded instead to the way it was used here.

This statement is often a sign that was is to come is one or the other.

Then why did you say the question is simple? You contradict yourself. Besides, you have no way of knowing what understandings each Christian has.

Who promised you consistency? To the contrary, I said that Christians would have varying opinions. What authority do you use in your broadbrush generalizations? Why do we need an “authority” other than our beliefs? The question WAS, after all, directed to believers.

It was interesting to see a few non-believers licking their chops in anticipation.

Your posts on these topics are eye-rollingly predictable. The OP doesn’t even matter as long as it’s a question relating to Christian theology. You might as well cut and paste.