Question for Christian Dopers (Jesus vs. God)

In My Humble Opinion
1

Hi SD,

Can you Christian Dopers help me out?

I am not Christian, so I don’t know the answer to this question.

Why is it that Christians sometimes call upon Jesus for help or salvation and not to God? I understand (I think) that Jesus and God are one and the same? But it would seem that God, the father of Jesus, would have more power than Jesus, who is only a human, as Christian doctrine points out. Why do Christian people sometimes call upon Jesus in their daily lives? I can understand that Jesus’ teachings are considered to be sacred and powerful, but certainly a teacher, even a really good one, who performed miracles and then died, is not as powerful and as capable as God? After all, God created the world, according to the Christian Bible, and Jesus too, right?

From my perspective Christianity seems to have a lot of love for Jesus, more so than God. Just look at Christmas and Easter. All about Jesus.

And when you pray, you naturally want to pray to the entity who has the best chance of fulfilling your prayers.

What am I missing? Happy to have my own ignorance fought!

Dave

2

You’re missing out on centuries of Christian philosophy, some of which is poorly sourced going back to early Christianity, building through things like Gnosticism, which I never learned in school and only learned from Wikipedia, building through early Roman Christianity, Medieval philosophy, early Enlightenment, the Protestant scisim and a great deal of Protestant infighting, down to Joseph Smith’s revelations and modern interpretations.

Briefly, there is little definite agreement on the statement I highlighted above. There is much philosophical debate on how we can understand what we can’t understand that gives us a glimpse of understanding. Think about it. That statement of mine makes some sense. “I only know that I don’t know.” and such-like.

3

If this moves to Great Debates, I’ll testify, in a manner that helps me explain the cognitive dissonance I use to understand the nature of God.

4

First off, I noticed a flaw in your assumption. If Jesus is God, then he is exactly as powerful as God, not less powerful.

Still, that doesn’t answer why they call upon Jesus by name. The main theology that is relevant is that Jesus is the intercessor for humanity, replacing the Jewish high priest. So, rather than asking the high priest, one asks Jesus, who will intercede for Christians. This is all directly in the Bible.

Now, how that interfaces with him also being God–that is complicated, and not in the Bible, because the Trinity concept postdates the Bible itself. But, to put it as simply as a I can, the concept is that Jesus is both his own person and God. God is made up of three persons, all of whom are fully God, not merely a part of God. But it does mean that they can be referred to separately, with different theological roles.

Of course, not all Christians believe Jesus is God. But, even for them, he’s not merely a teacher who did miracles, but the guy you go to (or the name you drop) if you want to speak to God.

5

Yes, the concept of The Trinity is central to answering this question. Exactly how The Trinity works is considered “a mystery,” but it is certainly not explainable by mortal logic. Basically, God the Father, Jesus the Son, and The Holy Spirit are all separate entities, yet at the same time are all one. It’s sort of the Christian equivalent of a Zen koan: it is there to “demonstrate the inadequacy of logical reasoning and to provoke enlightenment.”

6

Since the OP is seeking personal opinions, let’s move this to IMHO.

Colibri
General Questions Moderator

7

I don’t think it was true that the priest was an intercessor back then, and it is certainly not true today. Jews talk to God directly. The priest definitely was important in organizing worship. But there would not be any hint of making a human or anything else a replacement for God in any way. That is the reason for no graven images and no pictures in the temple - there should not be the slightest possibility of worshiping an idol or a demigod.
Remember, the prophets who God spoke through and who spoke for God were usually not priests.

8

Catholics teach that Jesus is also God. He’s both human and divine, which the human part explains all the preaching and suffering, etc. Anyhoo, my take on it is that sine God the father, sent his son, Jesus to suffer for mankind’s outrageously sinful behavior, that’s why Jesus became the go to guy.

9

On the other hand, it could also be just a really insufficient response to a fair question.

10

Jesus was BOTH fully human and fully God.

Divinity:
“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?” (John 14:6-9).

Humanity:
“And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head” (Matthew 8:20).

“Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin” (Hebrews 4:14, 15).

Both:
“But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house” (Matthew 9:6).

Contrary to another poster, the Trinity does NOT postdate the Bible. It is true that the word itself is not used in the Bible, but there is plenty of support for the concept.
Why we invoke Jesus’ name in prayer:
“And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it” (John 14:13, 14).

11

OK. SO this is a tangential point, but highlights Trinititarianism, so its useful for the O.P.

As a Catholic, I mumbled, in church, the Apostle’s Creed. Basically, its called the profession of faith, and describes, what I believe. In case, I forget, or have to explain myself, or something.
*
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life. Who procedes from the Father and the Son. And with the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets.*

There is a denomination of Christianity that will argue each word in that tiny paragraph. The paragraph for Jesus is even longer, so I skipped to this one.

Some Christians aren’t trinitartians, some object to ‘Lord’ a human appellation applied to God. Giver of life may imply that the Spirit may have been the creator, and some object to that. “Who procedes” is an archaic description that people argued about centuries ago, does it mean the Spirit is co-existent, or created by, or budded off the Godhead? People argue for and against all of those. SOme Christians won’t use terms like worship and glorify for anyone other than God, whether the acknowledge Jesus as God, or Son or both. And spoken through the Prophets sets all sorts of people off.

Listen, I was browsing the internet and I cam across a Baptist website reviewing the Keven Smith film Dogma. The last scene, when God, herself (played by Alanis Morisette) raises Bethany from the dead and impregnates her with the next generation of Savior despite her being sterile before, left the writer of the webpage livid. Alanis is playing God – Biblically, only Jesus and raise the dead, and only the Holy Spirit can conceive the Savor.

I was left with … OK, this is satirical film, clearly not meant for fundies and they still have a meta- complaint on the specifics of theology. This problem isn’t getting sewn up soon.

Not in a SDMB thread.

12

Nitpick: that’s actually the Nicene Creed.

13

As most replies have already indicated, Christian doctrine indicates that Jesus is not “only a human”. Arianism sees Jesus as the OP does (and see right there the reference to JWs), but it’s not how the biggest denominations see Him.
The conversion of the ruling Goths from Arianism at the Third Council of Toledo, to align with the Trinitarian populace, is nowadays one of those things which barely get a footnote in Spanish History lessons; back then it was huge. There’s still echoes of it in everyday Spanish* and we don’t even speak the same language they spoke.

  • Take the Hispanic interpretation of “do not take the Lord’s name in vain”, which we translate to “do not swear upon His name unless you really, really, really mean it” rather than “do not say His name” as some other cultures do;
    add (paraphrased) “do not swear at all; if your yes means yes and your no means no there is no need to add more”;
    add that in Trinitarian theology, Jesus is God but God is Jesus+Father+HG;
    and lampshade it all by saying “dude, I totally promise it’s true! It’s true like God is Jesus!”
    to get some laughs.
14

Correct. But you probably also mumbled through the Apostle’s Creed, as a sort of Preamble to the Rosary (if you ever recited the Rosary).

15

I’m describing concepts from the Bible itself in that statement–Hebrews 4:11-20:22, to be exact. Granted, that is New Testament, but that lesson had to make sense to Jews at the time.

If my attempt to simplify has created inaccuracies, I apologize. Rather than try again, I will simply leave the verses for those interested in the Christian beliefs to read.

16

There’s no universally-accepted test of who is a Christian and who isn’t. This leads to the necessarily-universally-accepted alternative that anyone who calls himself a Christian, is one. I think there must be people who say they are when they actually aren’t, but there’s no authority who can claim to speak for Christianity.

So… I’m an atheist. And a Christian. I think Jesus was right about a lot, and wrong about God being a man in the sky. When I pray, I don’t pray to a being or to a location. I believe God might be a legitimate part of psychology, but is certainly not a legitimate part of cosmology or history or physics or geography. Maybe for some people psychology makes it necessary or easier or better for them to imagine God having a body or a location. Maybe Jesus recognized that need in others. Maybe Jesus needed that himself. Maybe Jesus was just wrong about God. Maybe the Bible writers put words in Jesus’ mouth that he would never have endorsed. I think it’s important to remember that nobody knows.

17

Since that passage is clearly designed to cast Jesus as kind of a high priest, though not the official high priest, I can see why Christians take the job of the High Priest that way. But the High Priest did not have the power to offer atonement, which Jesus clearly does in Christian thought.
Taken literally this passage might be thought to say that Jesus just passes along requests for salvation, which I’m sure isn’t what the accepted meaning is.

18

Biblically you are not calling out to Jesus, but as Jesus praying to the Father. That’s what praying in Jesus name means. That’s also how Jesus instructs us to pray - though having to say ‘in Jesus name’ though common is not needed, but the instruction is to pray to the father as if were Jesus, and Jesus didn’t have to always say ‘in Jesus name’ for Jesus knew who he was.

Praying to Jesus does also happen, this is much like how people came to Him and asked Him for help, so you can also pray that God’s child comes and helps you, and if you find this child you can ask directly. After all praying is communication and it’s OK to talk with Jesus.

19

Having never been Roman Catholic, my experience of the Rosary has been nil. :slight_smile:

But I do recall mumbling my way through the Apostles’ Creed a fair number of times in weekly chapel at the Episcopal school I attended for several years before I became a Christian. :smiley:

20

IIRC, standard Christian doctrine of the Trinity is that all three Persons of the Trinity - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - each encompass the entirety of God and are yet distinct. (No, don’t ask me how that works. I don’t worry about it much. Like a bush that burns without being consumed, it’s beyond my understanding.:))

Just speaking for myself, when I pray, I don’t worry too much about the distinctions there, either. I pray to God, the Lord, Christ, whatever. (When I’m praying aloud, that is. Most of the time I’m praying, it’s just me and the Lord, and speech is superfluous.)

As far as the predominant role of Jesus in our worship goes, well, it was through Jesus that this whole crazy God business became real to us, made it possible for it to be an amazement in our lives.

I have my own story: I came to know the Lord 48 years ago in September. And each September, I remember again the events of that long ago, yet very present, September.

When we, as a church, tell the stories of Jesus throughout the yearly cycle of stories in the Scriptures that are in the liturgies of the assorted churches that have liturgies, we’re doing the same thing, only at the church level. At least, that’s how I think of it.