Bernie Sanders is like Jesus: He's pretty rad, his fan club sucks

The BBQ Pit
101

It’s a long list…

Republicans are more conservative than they have been in a century. Meanwhile, rather than move to the left, Democrats moved right, which is why many people consider Obama a centrist Republican in Democratic clothes. Even The American Conservative.

As was mentioned above, the Affordable Care Act was modeled after Republican ideas instigated as far back as Richard Nixon, and was famously the Heritage Foundation/Libertarian counter to HillaryCare (even though they were touting it years before Clinton was the first lady). Whereas today, Republicans would shut down the government and even default the national debt if that meant repealing what was initially their own idea.

Abortion views have barely changed in four decades, but anti-abortion legislation is at an all-time high.

Sainted Republican Ronald Reagan raised taxes eleven times. Now, a clown car of Republican presidential hopefuls won’t even raise $1 of taxes with a corresponding $10 in budget cuts.

Reagan was also able to support an assault weapons ban without the NRA calling for his impeachment. Meanwhile, today even Democrats cannot pass universal background checks - something 90% of Americans favor.

Cap & Trade was a Republican idea to deal with environmental issues and climate change. Now they are against it.

On immigration, Reagan was able to put amnesty into law. Meanwhile, Obama deports millions and Republicans sue him for Amnesty.

Meanwhile, Hillary Clinton is the presumptive Democratic nominee for president who is considered a war-hawk who loves Wall Street. Which isn’t an issue for Republicans whose neocons love a good war (and some of their brightest lights endorse her) or a nice big bank (some of whom paid her lots of money for her insight). These are legitimate criticisms of Hillary Clinton - except they can’t come from Republicans because they’re even worse on those issues (maybe that’s why they cling to hopes that the emails will be the thing that Benghazi wasn’t).

The only area where things have demonstratively gone more to the left in this country is with regard to LGBT rights - but when you consider that AIDS was a big joke to the Reagan administration, it had nowhere to go but up.

I would give you drugs as well however the shift towards undoing the damage of the drug wars is a relatively bipartisan effort where everyone agrees that mistakes were made and it isn’t working. As for decriminalization efforts, for something that appeals both to liberals and Libertarian-leaning conservatives, it’s moving incredibly slowly and nothing substantial at the federal level seems to be happening.

So yeah, in almost every way the country has gone much farther to the right politically, even in the cases where public sentiment hasn’t changed very much.

102

You misspelled Theodore Roosevelt.

Republican reflexive oppositionism is hardly the Democrats’ fault.

I’d add ACA, because it is now in place, no matter what earlier generations of pols *said *about the idea.

103

Anyone who thinks Obama is to the right of Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter needs their head examined.

104

Kid at summer camp told me when I was thirteen that my soul was forty years old. Suspect you’ve been a boomer since your first teeth grew in.

105

Most people I know IRL think my personality runs younger than my chronological age (though they don’t always mean it as a compliment).

106

What places him to their left?

107

Quoting from the comment feed on fivethirtyeight.com :

Straight copy/paste. Presented without comment.

108

Obama’s progressive achievements are legion, with a surprising amount getting done even after the House got taken over by hardcore right wing obstructionists. And as proof of his culturally left wing orientation, I hope you recall the evidence I provided in an earlier thread that he brought genuinely radical left wing black and brown folk to the White House for their “poetry jams”.

As for the other two, I love 'em both, but:

Jimmy Carter vetoed 31 bills passed by a Democratic House and Senate. As a result, he got a strong primary challenge, normally unheard of for an incumbent president, on his left by Teddy Kennedy.

Bill Clinton took time off the campaign trail to execute a mentally retarded man. In office, he declared “the era of big government is over”, and signed DOMA and welfare reform into law.

Ball’s in your court. What places Barack Obama to the *right *of either or both of the two other Democratic presidents who have served in my lifetime?

ETA: I have now, thanks to the Drumpf thread in the Elections folder, found the most hilariously “fucking retarded” (as Rahm would say) Bernhead imaginable, in this video, starting at 3:37 (watch for 37 seconds, until about 4:14).

“I have done my research. I have done my research.”

He was doing fine, of course, for the first twenty seconds or so. I thought he might actually be a smart anticapitalist who knew what the fuck he was talking about. But then…SMH. “Those were capitalists!” Oh dear. :smack:

109

A long list of whining because 1) Republicans are Republicans, 2) things aren’t changing right-the-fuck-now, and 3) minimizing the importance of the substantial trends that you recognize. How about women in the military? How about $15 minimum wages in two states with the #1 and #3 largest populations? How about companies helping to protect LGBT rights in Georgia and North Carolina? How about holding colleges and universities accountable for how they educate their students? How about subsidy programs for solar power, energy efficient homes and cars? How about the fact the right wing isn’t getting any of its legislative priorities across despite their successes in elections? The best they can achieve is to be a brake on these changes.

The entire political scene would look completely different if left-wing whining matched levels of participation in midterm elections. I am thrilled that I am forced to choose between Clinton and Sanders. On the part of the left, I’d be more thrilled if I saw the enthusiasm I see right now for politics among the youth in 2018.

110

So help make it happen.

Ways to make it happen:
-Welcome youth into political discussions.
-Value the energy of youth, even when it’s maybe less directed than you’d like.
-Find ways to incorporate the energy of youth into whatever political activism you engage in.

Ways to keep it from happening:
-When youth get into political discussions, call them “babies” or “kids.”
-Talk about how we should let the grownups make decisions.
-Value experience completely; discount the value of energy.
-Make whatever political organizations you work with difficult to enter, such that prospective new members are turned away.

I’m hearing some people act like the Millennial Hive Mind needs to get itself in gear and force its millennial minions to vote in off-year elections. Nope. The current political structures are significantly responsible for the drop-off in interest during midyears. If folks who are currently involved in politics want a change, we need to roll up our sleeves and help make it happen.

111

Oh, those are real and valuable achievements, all right. But, I wouldn’t call most of them progressive achievements. Most of them are like the ACA – overdue good-government reforms one could plausibly imagine President McCain or Romney enacting, which do not seriously threaten established business interests, do not seriously threaten the hegemony of the upper class, and do not significantly empower the poor, working and middle classes. You can tell a progressive reform by the way it makes Wall Street scream, and Obama has done very little of that.

Cultural leftism is easy, cheap, and non-threatening to the ruling class, all it does is anger cultural conservatives – which is something, but not much.

Nothing, I just don’t seem him as far enough to their left to make any practical difference. Likewise with Hillary.

112

Thanks for this. It took me a while to go through it and it’ll take me a while to find the time to respond in kind. The short reply is that I disagree with all of that except the immigration point. I’m not familiar with what the anti-immigration climate was like 30 years ago but it looks like a valid point.

113

What specifically is preventing strong participation by more people (especially younger people) in midterm elections (off-year elections seem to have a different dynamic)?

114

Republicans have reduced their efforts to the states they control, meaning they’re losing nationally. There isn’t much future to these laws either. This is a sign of failure. You know that right? Are conservatives supposed to just disappear from the planet without fighting back or something?

So the Republican party has become more conservative?

So the Republican party has become more conservative?

So the Republican party has become more conservative?

Her only policy positions are more wars and to support Wall Street? And she is more popular than Sanders among Democrats? Is that why people are more conservative? Why was Libya, an internationally sanctioned bombing campaign, a conservative position?

115

That’s fine if you feel that way; however, it’s a far cry from the claim upthread that he is to the *right *of his predecessors. Or maybe it was the party overall? But that’s even more wrong. On what planet is the most recent Democratic Speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi, to the right of Tom Foley, Jim Wright, or even Tip O’Neill? On no planet, is the answer.

The reality is that the party has moved distinctly leftward since its last period of Congressional power in the late '80s and early '90s. Hillarycare, let’s recall, was defeated (not filibustered) by a Democratic Congress. In that period in the early '90s, the Democratic Party majority was very diverse, containing urban, Northeastern and West Coast liberals just as it does today, but also a *lot *of Southern conservatives. But then came the Gingrich “revolution”, and this 1995 NYT article describes the fallout:

This graphic shows how starkly the party has moved leftward in recent years, with the majority of the shift occurring from 2004-2014 (and I’d bet the trend has continued apace).

You are entitled to feel that the party is not as far left as you’d like it to be. But if you misstate that frustration as “the party has moved rightward”, I’m going to pull out the canard that you are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.

116

I think this is wrong. Your own cite says that Democrats have moved farther left:

“Clearly, I think both parties have moved to the extremes since I’ve been watching politics. I don’t think there’s any doubt about that. The Democratic Party has been pulled to the left and the Republican Party has been pulled to the right. Part of that is redistricting.”

While some people think that Obama may be more conservative then they’d like, the last two Republican nominations (who lost, btw) are both criticized by the Right for being RINOs. Not only have Democrats moved left, one of the most liberal candidates in recent memory is very close to unseating a Democrat powerhouse, who is fairly liberal herself.

No sign of growing conservatism there.

Sure, some of the ideas were conservative. Some of the ideas were liberal–Obamacare borrowed many ideas from the Massachusetts plan, which is one of the most liberal states in the country. (Yes, I know Romney had a hand in the legislation but he was hardly the only one.)

Despite some healthcare ideas coming from conservative think tanks there was not one sniff of UHC with a sitting GOP president. Under Reagan it was unthinkable. Hillary was stopped cold in her attempt. It wasn’t until Obama was elected that the country was liberal enough to support UHC.

No sign of growing conservatism there.

Perhaps I’m not understanding you but I don’t see how this is a sign of growing conservatism. The government was shut down eight times during the Reagan administration (albeit for shorter periods) so I don’t think the most recent shutdown adds any extra weight.

I can totally believe that some states are attempting to erect anti-abortion legislation; I have no problem with stating that some states are more conservative now (and some are more liberal). However, at the national level there has been no serious challenge to abortion rights and none are forthcoming. Even if abortion views have remained largely static that at least means the nation is not more conservative.

No sign of growing conservatism there.

You can’t possibly use Reagan as a champion of tax raises. As your own cite says:
So it’s accurate to say Reagan increased levies during five years of his administration, but there’s a caveat: The overall tax burden on businesses and individuals went down during his presidency.
None of today’s candidates have more fervor for reducing taxes than Reagan. Besides, Obama has raised taxes 21 times.

No sign of growing conservatism there.

The bill Reagan supported had a number of pro-gun provisions. The “machinegun” ban was deemed worth trading for the act. By that point the NRA was at it’s full strength and it has been slowly strengthening gun rights since then. I don’t agree that this is a sign of growing conservatism, just slow legislative progression.

They aren’t against cap-and-trade, they are against AGW (which of course is wrong). If they could somehow be convinced of AGW there would be some support for CaT.

In addition I think that the environment is a bigger concern today than it was in the 80’s despite some GOP recalcitrance. We certainly have stronger environmental laws since then.

As I stated earlier this seems like one area where some Republicans really are more conservative. On the other hand some like Jeb Bush are softer on immigration, so I don’t think it’s a big shift.

You can complain that HRC is not as liberal as you would like but she would likely be the most liberal president in a long time (perhaps FDR). She is not a sign of growing conservatism.

Wouldn’t a bipartisan effort show that the GOP is more liberal on drugs than it used to be? I think that’s an obvious win for progressiveness.

So two areas clearly more liberal (sex rights, drugs), one area more conservative (immigration), two areas that–while not more conservative–have had a long progression (taxes and guns) for conservatives, and one a long progression for the environment. That certainly does not look like growing conservatism to me.

117

Tell the women in states with only one abortion clinic left that they’re winning.

My quote: “I think this country’s politics at the national level have shifted far more rightward than I am comfortable with over the past few decades.”

So yes, they are. So are the Democratic party since they are also deathly afraid to raise taxes, gun control is a loser for Democrats, and that they cannot get their shit together on environmental issues.

So if even only Democrats are unable to do things Republicans were able to do a few decades ago, that’s pretty solid evidence that “this country’s politics at the national level have shifted far more rightward than I am comfortable with over the past few decades,” which was my statement.

Are you intentionally obtuse or do you really not think that when the likely Democratic nominee is being courted by big banks and endorsed by neocons (and if you read the excellent Atlantic Magazine’s cover story “The Obama Doctrine,” you will discover that as Secretary Of State she was a lot more hawkish than Obama) that maybe she’s really that far left?

118

Your own graphic states it compares Democrats to the median Rpeublican. Since the median Republican has shifted tremendously to the right, polarization would explain the difference being bigger but it doesn’t change the fact that Democrats are also farther right - just not compared to Republicans who are way farther right. Your chart shows polarization and how the parties compared to the other party, not how they are on the issues compared to their own party in decades past.

119

Democrats are farther left compared to Republicans but that doesn’t mean they have moved left themselves (see below as I found another citation from the guy you quote indicating this).

If you and I are ten miles apart and run North from me 10 miles and I run towards you 5 miles, you and I are closer but is it fair to say I am more South than I used to be? If you then take off and run another 100 miles while I stand still, the differences between us are a lot more extreme even though in the grand scheme of things, I actually headed in your direction for a while there.

You are using Newsmax as a source. And a right wing Blogger. That side spent the last seven years calling Obama the libbiest lib who ever libbed. They were as right about that as they were “death panels.”

How about running down the long list on the cite I already mentioned - also from a Conservative outlet, just one that is less derpy than most:

It then lists a dozen or so actual policies and makes the case that they were “Rightward Policies.” I suggest you check them out - it could have been the only thing I needed to cite instead of the mountain of research I provided. :slight_smile:

Romney was a Republican. That’s kind of important. He implemented a plan there but abandoned it when running for President a decade later. It’s as if… He moved right! :eek:

Actually, Obamacare is not UHC. But that’s a minor point; the major one is that he instigated a Republican plan that was too liberal for Republicans by the time he instigated it, including the one guy who actually put it to use in a real live state-wide experiment.

Was it shut down to protest a plan that the side who shut it down once introduced? If not, again, the issue isn’t that the government was shut down, but why.

Abortion has always been a conservative issue. Just because there are some people who might be in favor of reproductive choice who are conservative in other issues or the other way around, they are the few, not the coalition.

I can when he was unafraid to raise them but Democrats are afraid to raise them now, even when they have populist appeal on the issue.

Again, liberals shoot and conservatives don’t but you’re either obtuse or ignorant if you don’t realized that most of the people who are against gun control are conservative and most of the people who are for gun control are not.

No, they’re against Cap & Trade. They even changed their individual minds on the issue, so it’s not just the party moving to the right, it’s actual Republicans.

Cite?

Also, EPA funding has been drastically cut the last few decades. Not exactly a sign that the environment is a big deal in national politics.

Our buddy Keith Poole who you quoted from my cite above has something to say about that (and he happens to back up my assertion above as well):

Maybe that’s why it’s not happening.

120

She sure latched onto that photo op with Cuomo about $15 an hour, didn’t she.

Of course the argument I got with the Bernie Bros was that she stole his idea!

I said, who cares if she. If she can get millions of people a livable wage, who cares who gets the credit?

One Bernie Bro (and I know it’s a small sample size) literally said that to me that yes, they would rather Americans not get that minimum wage hike if they didn’t get it from the right person.

Superdelegates are not going to go against the will of the people. If Bernie somehow defies the vast, vast odds against him and manages to get a majority of the pledged delegates, he will get the nomination or I’ll eat my hat (since eating hats seems to be a thing here).

That’s another thing that the Bernie Bros keep doing - complaining about the Superdelegate situation. Bernie knew the deal when he entered the race and they really don’t matter. Clinton had most of them until Obama started kicking her ass and we saw what happened.

Complaining about Superdelegates is a canard of the uninformed. When they go against the will of the people, I’ll agree with you. It hasn’t happened yet and it ain’t gonna happen this year.

Honestly, the Republican party seems a lot more likely to go and nominate someone other than the person who got the most votes. And they don’t even have superdelegates.