best martial arts for girls?

In My Humble Opinion
1

(Yes, the title is sort of inspired by the old “Chess for Girls!” SNL commercial. What?)

Okay, we’ve had plenty of threads on “girls who kick ass” and the like in the past. My question is this: in what martial arts would it be easiest for a woman to defeat a man with equivalent training? I realize that size and upper body strength are probably always going to confer some advantage, but which martial art best minimizes those factors? I’m guessing a ‘soft’ style, judo or aikido or something in that area, but I admit I know little about it. (My experience is limited to a couple years in American Shotokan karate back in high school…I wasn’t very good, but since I suck at all sports, I’m probably not much indication.) So what do you think, martial artist Dopers?

2

Kenpo is a pretty good one. It’s considered a soft/hard style. Generally speaking, American kenpo emphasizes fast combinations. The goal is to hit/kick your opponent many times in a combination that take 'em out. You’re not trying to do the one super power punch KO. Kenpo is generally very quick and works well in close.

3

Yep. Soft style would likely work best. Stick with the aikido/judo styles with throws and disables and takedowns if you want to learn to defeat grapplers, but if you expect to get into fights, you might want to look more into a hard/soft style like kung fu or tae kwon do (maybe ju jitsu?) so that you get used to a broader spectrum of fighting, i.e., learn how to take a punch or throw one.

From what I’ve seen of sparring in hard styles (I have a brown belt in Shotokan), women typically have to train for years before they can hold their own against guys, unless they’re big, midwestern Norski women… which we have here in St. Paul. Huh. Anyway.

As a side note to those who think being able to throw punches and kicks is the be-all and end-all to surviving a fight–I read an article a few years ago about how the way people train doesn’t reflect reality. They practice all these multiple-attack sequences where they hit their opponent three times, and then if they ever have to use them, their opponent’s done after the first blow. A brown belt in Judo was jumped in a parking lot, threw her opponent to the ground and stepped back to wait for him to counterattack, but of counterattacks there were none, because when she threw him to the ground (concrete) he broke an arm and three ribs…

4

I don’t think there’s any one best art for girls. Like a man’s choice, it depends on your personal strengths and weaknesses. You should look at arts which might favor your physical attributes regardless of gender (i.e. tall/short, heavy/light, flexible or not). In my experience, the women I’ve trained with in various arts have been more than a match for men with the same physique and skill level.

I’ve trained with a lot of women in Wing Chun Kung Fu, and they were very good fighters. WC is a soft(er) kung fu style that emphasizes deflection rather than hard blocking so strength is not an issue. We used to say “if it can’t be done by a 90-year-old man, it ain’t Wing Chun”.

As Ethilrist said, Aikido would also be a very good choice. The effectiveness of techniques in aikido are not dependent on your size or weight. Ju Jitsu is a very close equivalent to Aikido, but make a clear distinction between Ju Jitsu and Judo; they’re very different. IME, Judo focuses much more on groundwork. While this is very good training (since the majority of real-world fights go to the ground) it tends to make your size and weight a larger factor than the standing throws of Aikido/JuJitsu.

Another good choice might be a weapon-focused art like Kali or Escrima. These arts have very good empty-hand techniques, but they also teach small weapon skills that can even the odds against a larger/stronger/better-trained opponent. Women implicitly get a lot more latitude in carrying small weapons, so training to use something you can keep close at hand would be worthwhile.

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To clarify: I’m not particularly looking for an art for me right now - I’m at a small, isolated college, so my choices are limited to whatever classes they’re offering at the gym. (IIRC, it’s Tae Kwon Do these days; I’ll probably sign up next semester.) I’ll definitely be looking into ju-jitsu and Wing Chun and so forth once I get out of here, but for now, I’m just interested in it as a theoretical question. Thanks for the help!

6

bumpity bump - come on, let’s get some debate going here.

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You’ll wait a long time for a (n intelligent) debate. Anyone who’s studied enough arts to qualify will know there is no best martial art for anyone: male, female or neuter. The only people who claim best martial art status are people like the Gracies who are trying to sell their schools, and even they’ve toned down over the years. Everyone else will admit that personal preference, build, time comstraints, commitment and desired outcomes are all very personal and all play a major role in what style will work for you.

I would agree and disagree with everyone here to some degree and like every dedicated MA will say that you should be studying my style, which is essentailly Southern Crane Kung Fu.

I’d be highly reticent in recommending TKD because reach and strength play such a huge role. Women being shorter and weaker are always at a disavantage. The grappling styles like Aikido and Judo are probably a good bet because reach at least is minimised in its importance. But if you really want to even things up go with the weapon styles where strenth becomes a very secondary consideration.

If you want a style for the street go with something that targets the vital points: Joints, groin, eyes, throat etc. This unfortunately largely rules out TKD. Grappling is useful enough on the street but there’s always a risk of ending up on the ground with a man who is attacking you, which isn’t a good look. Some styles such as BJJ make this almost a certainty. And again study weapons, they’re the best startegy for anyone in a fight and women can get away with using them a lot easier than a man.

Needless to say most kung-fu styles teach vital point targeting and wepaons which is why I study it. Someone will be along shortly to tell you a whole range of reasons why they consider various other styles to be superior to KF, and they’ll be right from their perspective.

8

You know, one of the coolest things I think I’ve seen on this board is what I HAVEN’T seen. Dopers seem willing (in general) to engage in the most horrific, personal, flaming arguments over just about anything, except for martial arts. I’ve seen several threads now, asking what’s the best MA for __________, and yet there has been no fighting. I would say it’s ironic, except it just so damn wonderful…

Anyway, to chip in my two cents, (plus my rank and 30+ years of experience in judo) I have to agree that there is no one best MA for women. It really depends on the criteria so well-detailed above, and availability, as King of Spain has pointed out. (Q: What’s the best MA? A: The one with teachers in your area.)

Having said that, I would also like to say that it is extremely gratifying to see so many people recognizing judo’s practicality and applicability. I have female students right now who, with only a few month’s experience, are quite capable of tying guys into knots, who are larger and stronger, but are new students and have little or no experience.

Once experience equals out, size and strength definitely become more of a factor, but there are some judo techniques that women tend to have a better feel for than men. One of the most potent of these are shime-waza or choking techniques, which require subtlety and technique, rather than strength. I believe this may be because women tend to have more sensitivity in their hands, and more slender wrists, and so may apply chokes more deftly.

The one caveat with judo, and with soft arts in general, is that they generally take longer to learn, in a basic sense. I believe this is primarily due to the fact that they center on manipulating or responding to another person’s movement and mass, whereas striking arts focus more on one’s individual motions (striking and kicking). All the MA disciplines take years to master, but this distinction represents a qualitative difference in complexity.

However, the time necessary to achieve such practical expertise in judo is well justified, as seen when a girl does not have to worry about whether she has to hit an attacker, because she has already broken several of his bones by making him fall down. My mother had a saying about this: “in Karate, you hit people with your fist. In Judo, you hit them with the earth.”

I didn’t talk back to my mom, much.

9

From someone who has studied many forms over the years :slight_smile:

I would also have put in a vote for Wing Chun. It is a form basically refined and stylized by and around women. JKD is also a nice system [sub]( “use whatever works” )[/sub] but last time I checked there were only six official JKD training centers, and there’s a lot of fighting always going on about what “bruce” would have wanted, so it’s kinda political. That bugs me :wink:

10

I agree that the best martial art for the individiual person is what that individual is most comfortable with.

That said, Law Enforcment is moving heavily into Aikido. Why? Because it is fairly simple to learn, but it is also very effective. It does not necessarily rely on strength, speed, or flexibility, however, these obviously help. And even the smaller body frames can quickly and easily disable an attacker in short order.

It should also be noted that statistically speaking, most criminals who participate in the violent crimes are neither trained nor experienced in martial arts. So, again, whatever you feel most comfortable with would most certainly be the best martial art for your own personal protection.

Good Hunting

11

Just to clarify (and not to start a fight that will drive Yondan away), JKD is a “system”, not a MA. JKD schools teach techniques of martial arts with a specific philosophy and teaching method. Most JKD schools I’m familiar with focus on blends of Wing Chun, Escrima, Silat, and Kali, but you could just as well teach JKD Judo or JKD TKD. In the context of this discussion, it would be very important to know what martial arts a specific JKD school was drawing from.

In WC, I trained with several police officers who later moved to Aikido. The sole reason for their decision was that they needed a more “gentle” art. Police officers have a lot less latitude in causing injury than civilians do. If I break someone’s nose or ribs defending myself from a mugging, it’s cool. If a police officer causes similar injuries in an arrest, the case is likely to get kicked and the city would face a civil suit.

Also, while I’ll certainly second your comment about Aikido’s effectiveness, I’ve never heard Aikido and “simple to learn” in the same sentence. From zero to combat-effective can take a (relatively) long time in Aikido and other soft arts.

12

Just to add my 2 cents. I would ditto the recommendation of Judo and Aikido, either seperately or together. All the women I know who have practiced Judo love it. I think it has something to do with grabbing that big man and slamming him into the ground. Also, women tend to be shorter which can be an advantage in Judo. Also, I would say the system with the teacher you like best. You might also look into a basic self defense class. Usually these give you an exposure to different types of styles.

13

Ok, I have to ask.

How did you come to pick this screen name, Lao Tsu?

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As far as the OP - a woman against a man with equal levels of experience is going to get her ass kicked four out of five times. I recommend track shoes or weapons.

A good self-defence course is better than embarking on a full fledged study of a martial art. It concentrates on what you need without a lot of Buddhist stuff.

I would not recommend aikido for street defense. Aiki-jujutsu, maybe, but aikido is just too stylized to be of any use. Most styles of aikido concentrate on things other than combat utility - no ground work, no kicks, no free sparring.

And I second what someone else said - any martial art that focuses on self defence and has available training is a good choice. There is a ton of hype in this area - caveat emptor.

Of course, Yondon outranks me by more than a bit, so listen to him.

Regards,
Shodan

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This is flat-out wrong because it’s a gross generalization that ignores important factors. Say I pick a 6-foot professional female athelete and a 5-foot-3-inch sedentary guy, and give them the same training to the same competency (not necessarily just the same training time, since my female is likely to gain skills much more quickly). Whatever style you chose to train them, I’m betting the guy could not score 4 out of 5. How much money are you willing to put where your mouth is?

Gender is fundamentally unimportant. It only comes up in these discussions because it is generally correlated with size and weight differences. To use those generalities to back up a statement about “woman vs. man” is intentionally misleading.

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Maybe because a lot of guys just want to get between a woman's legs? :)

[sub] and that’s a bad place to be when they are choking you - harder to break the maneuver than if you are outside on mat techniques[/sub]

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Hmm. Maybe “intentionally” is a bit strong, micco. I have to admit that this question has me stumbling over some assumptions, too.

Your point about training the two hypothetical students to the same competency is very good, as it clarifies aomething I think the OP blurred a bit with the “equivalent training” phrase.

So, going back to the OP:

A good answer will depend on how “defeat” is defined. If we are talking point scoring, then I would have to say some of the TKD or Karate competitions may be best, where a simple “touch” is enough to earn a point awarded for placement, speed, and control.

If “defeat” means regularly whomping someone in practice, that really depends on the individual, I’d say. In judo, a focused, determined athlete will do well consistently, male or female. But there really is no getting away from the advantage size and strength have in a contest between equally competent people, because as you get better, you learn how to use size and strength more efficiently.

This is why, in spite of the fact that women’s competetive judo has become really, really good, (see Ryoko Tamura as an example) there is no way competition can be integrated. While the best female olympic players will defeat many, if not a majority, of your “more ordinary” male judokas, they would be severely outmatched by their male olympic counterparts.

Lastly, if “defeat” means destroying an attacker in self-defense, then that point has already been well discussed.

Ultimately I think it’s important to remember that winning and losing are not the aim of judo, but the development of self and balance. In this regard, I am happy to say without ambiguity that Judo is a tremendously fun and exciting way to train, and you do get to apply techniques fully, something that you can’t do as easily in many other disciplines. (Imagine getting nailed in the groin as hard as someone can kick you, several times a practice) In this way, you will get to throw big guys around, pin them, choke them, put them in armlocks, all in the name of building inner harmony. :slight_smile:

Of course all that happens to you too.

Shodan I just want to take the opportunity to thank you; I chose to register on the SDMB and chose this screen name in part because I saw your name on the threads. Thanks!

Lurkernomore, maybe, but such guys usually wind up rather unconcious and don’t really remember how they got there, so I doubt it remains a strong motivation. :wink:

18

My apologies, but I found Aikido fairly easy to pick up.

However, I was not interested in learning showtime sporting or becoming a competitor. My interests were more in line with the basics. Back in the academy (1992), we were trained in no-form basic self defense and take-down procedures. Later as a SWAT officer we trained with Aikido. I was very impressed, it was less hollywood and more practical than the basic Karate from my high school days.

I do agree with the Judo assessment, though. Nonetheless, I still stand behind my earlier comment that it is a very personalised choice. It depends on the persons needs, interests, and natural abilities.

While I am here in East Timor, I was hoping to pick up some Silat, unfortunately, it did not seem to make it this far. Apparently we are just too far from Java. Maybe I can take an extended vacation in Surabaya, Java Timur.

Does anyone know any good places to study Silat in the States?

19

While some of your assertions are overstated, I would agree with one aspect. FTR, I started studying judo in Tokyo from a national master when I was still in school and brached out from there when I moved throughout Asia.

Blanket statements are dangerous, but I would agree that although Aikido is visually stunning, it would not be my first choice for street self-defense. I would go into this in more depth, but a SDMB search of “Aikido” should more than suffice. Many celebrity MA’s have addressed this point, as well.

BTW, I’ve a female friend who is truly world-class in TKD and has appeared on, IIRC, at least two magazine covers. A few years back, she admitted that if she were confronted by a large male, she would run rather than risk a fight. She was under no illusions that her technical skills were enough to compensate for size, strength, and violence differentials. (That said, one could say the same thing about the average male. Need I go on? There are just too many variables.)

I’ve addressed my training before, so let me skip that tedious B.S. and instead ask this: why is it that seemingly half the men on this board claim to have black belts or otherwise serious martial arts training? In my experience, black belts are not that prevalent (and fewer still in America are truly proficient).

BTW, Micco, who said anything about “scoring”? We’re talking about a street fight.

20

i do taekwon-do and a large proportion of our class, 40% maybe more, are female. somebody above said reach was important in TKD, but i’d disagree i think speed and technique and fitness are the most important, and these are all developed as you progress.