Bible verses: 2 Kings 2:23-24; Numbers 5:11-31

Great Debates
1

I don’t think the punishment fits the crime. How about you?

I don’t think it’s right to stone rebellious teenagers either.

That’s what I get out of it too. However I’ve been accused of taking bible verses too literally. So I wonder if any of the liberal Christains around here might be able to point out any deeper metaphorical religious truths from the passage.

Another question I have is how is it that every internet apologist is able to better interpret ancient texts better than the people who do it professionally?

A) How do you know they weren’t “children” as we think of them? B) If true, does that really make the story better?

2

Those quotes have it both ways- ‘little children’ and ‘young men’.

3

Fucking brats had it coming.

4

“Young men” was used all of once, out of 18 translations, and again I ask, does that make the story better?

5

I’ll bet it never happened.

6

Post hoc ergo propter hoc? The text doesn’t explicitly say that God sent the bears, or even that there was any direct connection between Elisha’s cursing and the bears’ appearance. It’s certainly natural to draw that conclusion, but I don’t know whether it’s fair to assume (and a literal reading doesn’t require it, at any rate).

7

I have read that referring to them as “children” is a mistranslation, but I share your puzzlement as to why, in that case, even modern translations can’t agree on the correct wording. I do think it makes a difference whether Elisha was accosted by a mob (at least 42) of young hoodlums or of kindergartners.

I have also heard that, in that context, “Go up, thou bald head” was a major insult, or even a threat; here’s one online cite I could find.

8

Not religious, but I’ll throw my hat in the ring.

Sure, the punishment seems barbarous to us in the modern world, but religious law is not interested in whether or not you think it’s barbarous. If God thinks something is right or wrong, he is the final authority on that.

One of the commandments is “Honor thy father and mother”, which is sometimes broadly interpreted as “Honor thy elders” as opposed to mere familial piety. In that light, the children are violating not just a side rule, but a COMMANDMENT! (I am aware that Judaism has identified 700 odd commandments in the Torah, but the big 10 are given more weight). They have committed a grave sin. Whether or not you think it’s a sin, or it’s a big sin, is irrelevant. God thinks it’s a sin, so it is.

Also, this is a demonstration of the power faith brings. Elisha has a strong faith in his God, so when he curses the children, bad things actually happen. If he had weak faith, or no faith, his curses would be fairly meaningless. It’s demonstrating the power that faith in his God brings him, a tale that is repeated over and over in both Testaments.

There’s the English saying “If you don’t want to do the time, don’t do the crime”. The children here violated the religious law, and they were punished. It’s a nontraditional means of punishment (although, how often does God actually smite people with a lightning bolt?), but a punishment nonetheless.

From a non-religious standpoint, it could be a convenient explanation for how some children were killed in a bear attack. I’m sure those happened back in the day - they still happen now. Some bears attack some children, and Elisha makes cold, calculating use of the event to make a parable about not insulting bald people. Or, when people ask why Elisha didn’t help, he claims he summoned the bears with God’s wrath, which will have the double effect of hindering prosecution (who wants to arrest someone that can summon bears?) and intriguing the followers he will preach to (dude, my crappy religion just helps my crops grow. That dude can call forth attack bears).

Or maybe Elisha just was tired of having fun poke at his chrome dome and made up a story to get people off his back.

9

I don’t know of anything particularly deep or interesting that can be said about this verse. Respect elders, don’t mess with prophets, Elisha was bona fide, etc. Pretty much the surface reading.

Interestingly, there is a Talmudic tradition that Elisha was punished for this act.

10

What was the punishment and what was the reasoning? It would seem to me that if God didn’t want Elisha to curse the children, God wouldn’t have sent the bears.

11

He got sick (that’s all it says) and the Talmud is weird about prophets’ relation to God. There’s often a relation of mutual frustration depicted between them, and God is often depicted as listening to prophets, sometimes against his better judgment. (You can see elements of this in the Old Testament itself… witness Jonah for the former, and I’m having trouble remembering specifics on the latter.)

12

I think it’s pretty deep and significant that the mob consisted of exactly 42 people.

13

Well there you have it. Make fun of a bald man, and God has you torn to shreds by bears.

Curse little children so they are torn to shreds by bears, and God gives you the sniffles.

Makes sense to me.:rolleyes:

14

I completely agree.

15

Is that your ‘gotcha’? The “religious truth” here is not metaphorical - the lesson is that God is not pleased by young people disrespecting their elders, especially prophets of God.

To modern sensibilities the punishment is disproportionately brutal for what sounds like a mild insult, but the incident has to be placed in context - this was ancient Israel thousands of years ago. It’s hardly the only incident in the Old Testament that describes violence that we would find appalling today (e.g. the ethnic cleansing undertaken by Joshua.)

16

Sorry, to me, this has always sounded like a made up horror story to keep kids in line.

17

Do you think the event really happened?

18

Why 42? Meh… there happened to be 42 youths/children there or all but the 42 got a way.

However, is it odd that the question that I want answered the most is - why bears? Were bears indigenous to the are in question at that time? Why not wolves? Or why not puma?

I’m not trying to be flippant in asking this.

19

I’ve heard this too - however, if I recall correctly, you were considered a ‘man’ at 13 back in those days, weren’t you?

So Children would be <13 While ‘young men’ would be what, 13-20?

20

The view of God as a personal God is basically New Testament. In the OT, he’s much more the God of the nation of Israel. Look at the whole chapter: Elijah is taken by a whirlwind up to heaven, giving Elisha his mantle. The rest of chapter is given over to establishing Elisha’s credibility as Elijah’s successor: a search for Elijah proves unfruitful, Elisha purifies a spring, giving the city fresh water, and then we have this section, which shows God has Elisha’s back, and that mocking God’s prophet is the same as mocking God.