Thank you, Pbear. That certainly clarifies the matter regarding the Gentile converts. I’ve come across something recently which points out that Paul in Galatians was certain that the Law was always bad, even for Jews, even before Christ came. That would make for some extensive discussion. But not here, of course.
Then of course there is this:
Matthew 5:18 For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Of course I’ve not met a single Christian that takes that literal.
Literal? As in you haven’t met one who believes that the written Law will continue to exist, without any letters disappearing, until the end of the world?
If that’s not what you mean, you don’t mean “literal.” And if you don’t mean literal, how do you think it’s supposed to be understood?
As in I have not met a single Christian who thinks he needs to follow every letter of the law. Heck, I’ve never met one that thinks he should even follow the Ten Commandments. I bet you don’t.
Not that I want to engage in a pedantic gotcha match, but doesn’t Christ say the words “It is accomplished” while on the cross in the Gospel of John?
Each gospel gives a different story. John 19:30 has him said “it is finished” but does not say what he was talking about. Certainly heaven and earth did not pass away, but I think you are giving one of the common justifications Christians use to not follow the law.
I see it as dovetailing a bit with Revelations 21. Heaven & Earth pass away to be replaced by a New Heaven and a New Earth (which are both together). For Jesus, his death (and decent into Hell) is Heaven & Earth passing away for him replaced by a transformed body and Christ is the first fruits (as St. Paul tells us).
There is a school of thinking (best shown by the works of N.T. Wright) that indicates that the Kingdom of God was ushered in at Jesus’s resurrection, but it will not be fully complete until Jesus comes again at the end. This is, of course, very different from the evangelical mindset (in addition, the rapture is completely dismissed by non-evangelicals - which also makes the end very different).
So you continue to follow the OT law?
Nope, I see Jesus as accomplishing it for all of us. His Victory has freed us from the shackles of sin and thereby the Law passes away into the new era of Grace (I am a believer in the Christus Victor view of atonement, FWIW).
OK, so heaven and earth have not passed away, but you figure you don’t need to keep the law. Like I said, I don’t know any Christians who give Jesus any weight in that verse.
Are you sure Jesus was victorious?
I don’t see how this is. I was raised in Evangelical circles and what you said about the Kingdom of Heaven was certainly in the air.
I may have been unclear then. Kingdom of Heaven is NOT in the air. It is the area were God lives - think of it as alternate dimensions (like “Fringe” if you will :D). It’s also why Jesus kept seeming to appear and disappear - he was sliding between the dimensions of heaven & earth at will, as his newly transformed body was both.
Okay, but that’s not what Jesus literally said, is it? That’s your interpretation of what he meant. You’re just as bad as those liberal Christians!
I think I understand the nuance of language pretty well. My guess is you do to, which is why you put italicized “literally.” I understand that semantics is as good as your arguments get. It’s interesting to watch from the outside. I wish you could see yourself.
So you seem to be of the opinion that what Jesus meant was that his followers should continue to follow every detail of the Law until heaven and earth pass away. Is that a fair summary of what you think he is saying?
Because I’ll point out that he doesn’t say that, at all; and in fact it contradicts other things that he did say. So I think you are mistaken.
This statement is incredibly amusing for the irony :).
Yeah and I think he said that pretty clear. What do you think he meant? Did Jesus come down from heaven to soften up the laws?
Speaking of amusing, what makes you think Jesus had the power to pass back and forth between dimensions?
Actually, I did not make myself clear. “In the air” is an idiom in the English language. What I was saying could be put more clearly as, "I was raised in Evangelical circles, and in my experience, the ideas you expressed about the Kingdom of Heaven were often endorsed, though not necessarily by everyone.
No, on the contrary. He goes on to say in the same passage: “Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.”
The he goes to say that murder is bad, but if you’ve insulted a brother you are just as guilty as a murderer. Adultery is bad; but if you’ve looked at a woman in lust you have committed adultery. The Law allows for divorce; but if you divorce your wife except for unfaithfulness you make her an adulteress. The Law says “eye for an eye” but instead, you should turn the other cheek. So not only is he not abolishing the Law, Jesus raises the bar even higher.
So clearly the Law condemns us. And, until “heaven and earth pass away” the Law will be there as a reminder of how much we fall short of God’s commandments.
But the good news is that in Jesus, we have been freed from the Law - we are not justified by following the Law, but by faith in Christ. Right before saying that the Law will not pass away, he says: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law. I have not come to abolish it, but to fulfill it.”