I think this is roughly analogous to someone who insists that advertising has little or no effect on their purchasing decisions. It’s very common for people to state this, and yet companies spend lots of money on advertising. The reason, I think, is that a lot of people have poor understanding of what motivates them. So too with the sexuality of the female of our species, i.e. they are attracted to men for various subconscious reasons and then offer rationalizations for that attraction.
If you want to know what motivates people to buy a particular soft drink, is it better to ask the people themselves, or to ask someone who makes his living advertising soft drinks?
But let me ask you this: What exactly is the problem with a man who is timid or unassertive? Do you find such a man unattractive and if so, why?
Well probably people who want biblical marriages really mean that they want traditional marriages as envisioned by more recent religious teachings. For the last thousand years or so, polygamy has fallen out of favor (for the most part) in Judaism and Christianity.
Actually, I would say that modern Judaism and Christianity, although based on the Bible, is also heavily informed by later thought. For example, Orthodox Jews regularly attend synagogues even though there is nothing mentioned in the Hebrew Bible about synagogues.
I agree that people, by and large, don’t always understand what motivates them. However, it’s patronizing to suggest that women don’t know their own motives while implying that men do (or that you do!). I don’t think human motives are that mysterious, and it shouldn’t be that difficult for a person of average intelligence to figure out what is behind their reasons for seeking certain qualitites in a mate.
I’m not attracted to timid, unassertive men because I’m not typically attracted to that type of person for any type of relationship. Those traits annoy, and in a relationship, actually enrage me at times. I like a man who is straightforward, confident, intelligent, and able to be my equal. I have a dominant personality, and my husband less so, however, he still has the qualities I find attractive in a mate.
I’ve found that it takes a strong man to be with a strong, independent woman, and a lot of guys aren’t up to it. It’s the sort of thing a lot of men are initially intrigued by and attracted to, but after awhile those traits they found so sexy aren’t as appealing to them in the long run. My best friend has always been ambitious and independent, and her husband of almost 10 years ended up asking her for a divorce because she wouldn’t just “settle down” and be the traditional wife and mother he thought she should have turned into by then. It was shitty, and it hurt her a lot, but she wasn’t about to change who she was to make him happy.
As for myself, I’m not always easy to be with, because along with my positive traits I can be hot-tempered and opinionated. One of the things I fell in love with about my husband is that he doesn’t let me push him around, or indulge my bitchier tendencies, for lack of a better description, haha. He’s not an asshole, and he’s not a “nice guy,” he’s somewhere in the middle, and I feel lucky to have found someone who complements my personality so well.
If you want me to delve into the psychological reasons I sought a mate with these qualities, it’s partially the basic biological reasons for attraction, and partially the things I’ve learned from trial and error from the years I was single. I’ve dated different “types,” and by far I’m least compatible with unassertive, timid types. Guys like that bring out the very worst of my personality traits, and it becomes almost irresistable to be a cruel bitch to a guy who is such a kiss ass. And I don’t want to be with someone whose wimpiness brings out such ugliness in me. I’m sure there are women out there who do want a guy like that (I don’t know any of them, but I’m sure they’re out there, haha.), but not me.
It may be patronizing, but it’s true and when you think about it, it actually makes sense. After all, I have made sexual advances towards dozens of girls (or women if you prefer) over the years if not more. So I’m in a much better position to understand what motivates them sexually.
Perhaps, but I think it’s fair to observe that (1) timidity and unassertiveness in a man is pretty much a universal turnoff sexually. (Perhaps even more so than if the man is short, fat, or bald); and (2) it’s not the case that timidity or unassertiveness are a universal turnoff for men.
That makes no logical sense whatsoever. I’ve worked in nightclubs for 15 years, and have had conversations with 1000+ men about everything from sex to raising kids. Does that mean I know more about what motivates men’s behavior than men do? I don’t believe so. I definitely know more about it than most women, but it would be pretty arrogant to act like I know more about men’s psyche than the men themselves.
You remind me of a guy I got into a debate with on a friend’s FB a couple of weeks ago. He was trying to tell us that he knows more about what turns on and pleases women sexually than women do themselves, even going so far as to say he could definitively tell us what type of orgasm is superior. When we tried to explain to him that sexuality and certain types of pleasure over others is highly subjective, but he kept stubbornly arguing his ridiculous point.
My friend and I both think he’s probably lousy in bed, but that’s another issue.
I’m not sure what your point is here. I’m not claiming that my statement per se demonstrates the truth of my claims. I’m simply claiming that (ironically?) a man is in a better position to understand female sexual motivation.
Possibly, but were you trying to seduce all of these 1000+ men? If you were, I would concede that you were in a better position to understand mens’ sexual motivations than men themselves.
You seemed to be implying that your preference for (relatively) assertive and confident men was special to you because of your own personality. But actually the preference is pretty much universal. (But only half universal since it’s not a turn-off for guys to meet a girl who is unassertive or timid.)
How does wanting to sell soft drinks make you an expert in customer behavior?
The answer, of course, is that it doesn’t. However, if you are reasonably smart and spend a lot of time trying to sell soft drinks you can learn quite a lot about customer behavior. Similarly, if you are a reasonably smart guy who spends a lot of time hitting on girls you can learn quite a lot about female sexual preference.
The thing is, you didn’t say that women want assertive, confident men. You said they wanted men to lead them. That’s a completely different concept. And you cannot say that you meant something different, since you clarify your meaning. You mean that all women want men to make the final decision. They are the boss, and the “girl” is the subordinate. And you claim that most women are happy with this.
This is what you have to prove. You made a statement, and your only backing is that you know it’s true from experience. Your experience is worth jack in determining what most people want. This is not good enough for many reasons: your mate selection is going to be biased. Your particular location is going to create a bias. And you are obviously going to be subject to confirmation bias.
If you want to assert that women want to be led, let’s see the citations from psychologists that back you up. Heck, even a magazine where women reveal what they secretly want would be better than what you’ve given us.
Easy. You are asserting that what two adults agree to is perfectly okay, and that we are wrong to question it. Yet we are adults on this board who have agreed to being able to say what we think about these people. Therefore, it is wrong for you to question us.
No, I don’t think it’s completely different. Why do you think it is that confidence and assertiveness is so valued in men but not the other way around?
Not all, but most.
Basically yeah. Personal experience and general observations. I doubt that there has been much scientific study of this issue.
Would you say the same thing about any claim which is made on the basis of simple experience and observation?
I’m skeptical, but for better or worse there is no practical way for either of us to verify the other’s experience. Also, I doubt there has been much serious scientific research on this issue and if there has, it would be difficult to separate out all the different variables.
Tell me Brazil84, when hitting on a “girl” as you call us, do we tell you to hit the road nine out of ten times? But that tenth time is so magical and wonderful you forget about the other nine times?
'Cause that’s all I can think of to support what you say.
(Reasoning from SNL’s skit on Liberace and Michael Jackson giving tips on picking up women, circa the Eddie Murphy years. I always credit my sources.)
