How does Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan fit into all this?
This is without a doubt the most retarded argument I have ever read on the Dope, and for what it’s worth, Diogenes is consistently one of my favorite people here.
No culture is “better” at music than any other culture! All cultures have great music that they have created. Every “white” ethnic group as well as every non-white ethnic group has its own distinctive musical culture. The “blues” is not one hundred percent black music, by the way - it’s influenced by Irish and Scottish ballads. I used to have a whole book about the connection somewhere but I lost it along with many other books. It points out how a lot of old blues songs actually share some of the same lyrics, word for word, with English and Irish folk songs that are hundreds of years old. Blacks and whites in America have joined together to create American music, dude. It’s not like all rock’n’roll is just “stolen from blacks” as some people ridiculously claim. The Beatles copied early black rock singers - they also copied Elvis, who copied distinctly white country acts. If you listen to very early American country music, you’ll hear a lot of tunes that are basically straight up Irish music. The Beatles incorporated classical music into their stuff, they incorporated traditional English brass band music and clarinet choirs and stuff like that - all those songs like the ones on Sgt. Pepper’s and The White Album with the quirky-ass orchestration and weird instrumental arrangements - all that is drawing from a lot of very old European music as well as black American music.
I do believe that rock and roll is the greatest music of all time. And I think it’s something that was created in equal measures by blacks and whites. That’s why it symbolizes what is great about America.
Also I believe that Jimi Hendrix himself claimed that Terry Kath (the [white] guitarist of Chicago) was better even than him.
So which race do I hate? I’m still waiting for an answer to that.
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
Are you saying that Elvis did not borrow heavily from black musicians? It wasn’t all he took from. He had some country in there too and some Gospel (which I guess is also Black), but he was the first one to admit that his primary influence was R&B “race music.”
[/QUOTE]
Not at all. He did borrow very heavily. But he is singled out for that because he is white. Do you think Miles Davis did not borrow?
[QUOTE=Argent Towers]
This is without a doubt the most retarded argument I have ever read on the Dope, and for what it’s worth, Diogenes is consistently one of my favorite people here.
No culture is “better” at music than any other culture! All cultures have great music that they have created. Every “white” ethnic group as well as every non-white ethnic group has its own distinctive musical culture. The “blues” is not one hundred percent black music, by the way - it’s influenced by Irish and Scottish ballads. I used to have a whole book about the connection somewhere but I lost it along with many other books. It points out how a lot of old blues songs actually share some of the same lyrics, word for word, with English and Irish folk songs that are hundreds of years old. Blacks and whites in America have joined together to create American music, dude. It’s not like all rock’n’roll is just “stolen from blacks” as some people ridiculously claim. The Beatles copied early black rock singers - they also copied Elvis, who copied distinctly white country acts. If you listen to very early American country music, you’ll hear a lot of tunes that are basically straight up Irish music. The Beatles incorporated classical music into their stuff, they incorporated traditional English brass band music and clarinet choirs and stuff like that - all those songs like the ones on Sgt. Pepper’s and The White Album with the quirky-ass orchestration and weird instrumental arrangements - all that is drawing from a lot of very old European music as well as black American music.
I do believe that rock and roll is the greatest music of all time. And I think it’s something that was created in equal measures by blacks and whites. That’s why it symbolizes what is great about America.
[/QUOTE]
Good post. I basically agree with all of it. I just think that black creativity has consistently been the most significant.
[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF]
This would be comedy gold were it not so tragic. Friend Diogenes, who loves to rail on people for bigotry, hypocrisy and the like, says something so abysmally stupid as to beg for someone to call him out. And then, instead of admitting it was stupid, he sticks to it like his life depends upon it. A six-page trainwreck ensues.
It’s like clockwork. Old Faithful isn’t this reliable.
[/QUOTE]
Who am I bigoted against?
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
95% of any genre is complete crap. As bad as most rap is, white rap is even worse.
[/QUOTE]
I’d have to agree with that last statement. But they, the whites, have an excuse. It’s not their fault, is it?
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
Good post. I basically agree with all of it. I just think that black creativity has consistently been the most significant.
[/QUOTE]
Judged against what? Sorry, Dio, you are working in a vacuum here. Your (subjective) bias is showing. Would you have thought this if you had lived 500 years ago, 500 years from now? Improv is based on something that someone has already laid the foundation for.
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
So which race do I hate? I’m still waiting for an answer to that.
[/QUOTE]
C’mon, it’s not about who you hate all the time. It’s about which group you think is better than [pick a subject]. You’ve admitted to a bias. I’d hate to be a musician who was auditioning for you, since I’m white and all… you’ve already prejudged me. But since I’ve seen and respected the myriad posts you’ve contributed here for years, I see it as nothing more than a lapse. Prejudices have to be unlearned for everyone, and there’s nothing wrong with that. I had to do it myself. Sometimes they come back, and I believe in the idea of saying something you don’t really mean sometimes. No one is immune from this.
[QUOTE=cmyk]
C’mon, it’s not about who you hate all the time. It’s about which group you think is better than [pick a subject]. You’ve admitted to a bias. I’d hate to be a musician who was auditioning for you, since I’m white and all… you’ve already prejudged me. But since I’ve seen and respected the myriad posts you’ve contributed here for years, I see it as nothing more than a lapse. Prejudices have to be unlearned for everyone, and there’s nothing wrong with that. I had to do it myself. Sometimes they come back, and I believe in the idea of saying something you don’t really mean sometimes. No one is immune from this.
[/QUOTE]
And the kindly cmyk opens the escape hatch back to comfort, safety and sanity. Will he walk though it? Let’s watch…
[QUOTE=magellan01]
By the way, I’m in advertising. There are quite a few predominantly black and black-owned agencies. I’m still waiting for the first great idea to come out of one.
[/QUOTE]
Are you serious?
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
So which race do I hate? I’m still waiting for an answer to that.
[/QUOTE]
Ummmm… why do I feel this is a bad joke?
Anyway, from Merriam-Webster Online:
Racism:
1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2 : racial prejudice or discrimination
I don’t see where or how hating another race is a necessary component.
[QUOTE=DMC]
Are you serious?
[/QUOTE]
Unfortunately, yes. I have, though, worked with one black writer and one black art director, and they were both really talented. Especially the art director—scary good. But the black agencies—Grade B- at best.
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
Good post. I basically agree with all of it. I just think that black creativity has consistently been the most significant.
[/QUOTE]
Well, now we’re getting to matters that are purely personal opinion, but in my view, this has changed in recent years. Right now, the predominant forms of “black” American music - rap, hip hop and R&B - have been churning out the most tired, played-out shit. I think the most unique rock music in America right now is coming from the indie scene (and I don’t mean mainstream indie stuff like The Shins, I mean Oneida, Grizzly Bear, The Fiery Furnaces, The Decemberists, ‘post-rock’ bands like Tortoise, The Sea and Cake, This Will Destroy You, Do Make Say Think [actually Canadian but whatever,] and many other bands that nobody here has probably heard of.) All of these bands draw on pretty much everything but traditionally “black” music, and they’re the ones, in my opinion, who are bringing new stuff to the table.
And jazz, once the great jewel of black American innovation, has been completely watered down and is now music mostly for white yuppies. The only group in my opinion who is bringing anything new and interesting to jazz is Jaga Jazzist, which is from FINLAND.
Times they are a-changin.
[QUOTE=Argent Towers]
Times they are a-changin.
[/QUOTE]
Word.
[QUOTE=cmyk]
C’mon, it’s not about who you hate all the time. It’s about which group you think is better than [pick a subject]. You’ve admitted to a bias. I’d hate to be a musician who was auditioning for you, since I’m white and all… you’ve already prejudged me. But since I’ve seen and respected the myriad posts you’ve contributed here for years, I see it as nothing more than a lapse. Prejudices have to be unlearned for everyone, and there’s nothing wrong with that. I had to do it myself. Sometimes they come back, and I believe in the idea of saying something you don’t really mean sometimes. No one is immune from this.
[/QUOTE]
I’m white too. I’m also a former wannabe rockstar who spent more than a decade fronting a series of bands (I was the guitarist, the singer and the songwriter) and I auditioned many a dude for many a spot. Almost all of them were white (not that many black musicians are into metal). I can remember auditioning two black guys. One was a bassist, one was a guitarist. Neither one got the gig. They couldn’t play. I have no prejudice or bias at all on an individual basis. I’m just observing that, in general, I think Black musicians have tended to be better than white – at least at the top of the scale. The cream of the crop instrumentalists are more likely to be black than white. Who’s the white Satchmo, or 'Trane or Bird or Hendrix?
It’s all IMO, I know, but does it really make me a racist? Jesus. It was an offhand comment. I’m glad I didn’t say anything about basketball.
[QUOTE=magellan01]
Unfortunately, yes. I have, though, worked with one black writer and one black art director, and they were both really talented. Especially the art director—scary good. But the black agencies—Grade B- at best.
[/QUOTE]
That’s not what you said, although I’d be really curious how you were able to measure the overall quality of all black-owned or predominantly black agencies. What you said was that you were waiting for the “first great idea to come out of one.” Hell, the “Realize” campaign was pretty damned special, for instance.
Let me know how you came up with that B-.
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
The cream of the crop instrumentalists are more likely to be black than white. Who’s the white Satchmo, or 'Trane or Bird or Hendrix?
[/QUOTE]
Who is the black Rachmaninoff?
[QUOTE=magellan01]
By the way, I’m in advertising. There are quite a few predominantly black and black-owned agencies. I’m still waiting for the first great idea to come out of one.
[/QUOTE]
The rest of us are waiting for the first great idea to come out of any of them.
[QUOTE=Autolycus]
Ummmm… why do I feel this is a bad joke?
Anyway, from Merriam-Webster Online:
Racism:
1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2 : racial prejudice or discrimination
I don’t see where or how hating another race is a necessary component.
[/QUOTE]
I don’t believe race exists biologically at all (I see the difference I’m being pitted for alleging to exist as cultural, not biological), much less that it’s a determinant of anything and I certainly don’t discriminate, so I don’t fit any of this criteria.