The Racialist Bait and Switch

I have a friend - let’s call him “D’Brickashaw” - who likes to pull a racialist bait and switch on me. We have had many conversations on race before, so all of our conversations on race carry with them content from previous conversations.

D’brickashaw has socially conservative leanings. Like many social conservatives, he thinks people like me are naive, dogmatic, and closed to the truth. And the truth is that different racial groups are innately different.

I’m not, in fact, entirely closed to the idea that different racial groups could have genetic differences, on average. I find it really hard to account for the preponderance of amazingly successful Jewish scientists through some sort of cultural explanation, for example. I do think, however, that judgment should be withheld until a large amount of data has been gathered, that cultural explanations can account for many differences in average racial differences, and that such explanations should always be understood as referring only to the average member of a certain racial group.

In previous conversations, D’Brickashaw has brought up the idea of innate racial differences, and I’ve agreed that it is possible that they could exist. I’ve also stated that, if they exist, I think that the differences aren’t as huge as people think they are.

But D’brick is not just looking for me to agree with this relatively mild (though still controversial) stance. He doesn’t merely want me to admit that Kenyans could have a hereditary advantage in long-distance running or that there could be some heredity in the figures for Jewish Nobel Prize winners. He wants to make statements that one would generally interpret as having a racist meaning, and he wants me to not have any objections.

D’brickashaw likes to use derogatory terms. He sometimes refers to a woman as a “bitch” not because she actually is a bitch, but just because she’s a woman. He uses the word “gay” to mean “bad” or “stupid”, and sometimes makes fun of homosexuals. Once, when he was drunk and making too much noise, I told him to quiet down. He told me to not “be such a Jew about it”.

D’brick is one of those people who likes to make ridiculous statements and, when you object, defensively explain them away. “No, I was just kidding,” he might say, “you know black people call themselves ‘niggers’ too, it’s not hateful.” He never really means to insult any particular group - if you take his word for it.

Last night, I had him and two other friends over to watch some soccer videos. At one point we began to talk about how soccer was on the rise in Africa, and he said something along the lines of “once the niggers start really playing soccer they’re going to beat the white people for sure”. He went on to talk about how “black people are athletically superior to white people”. Then he targeted me, saying that I was the kind of person who wants to shut up people who say the sorts of things that he says.

He was obviously trying to bait me. The bait works like this:

  1. Either establish, or understand that the other person believes, that innate racial differences could exist.
  2. Make statements that go well beyond what one could reasonably infer about certain racial groups given the available evidence. Make sure they sound bigoted.
  3. When the other person objects, say that they’re denying that racial differences can exist and call them dogmatic.
  4. Twist your own bigoted statements so that they actually sound reasonable, ie “when I say niggers, I just mean black people, I was just talking about black people”.

He would make fun of me by saying things like “yeah, uh-huh, I’m just a racist white guy, oh racist me”. He tries to portray himself as the victim of some vast liberal conspiracy (of which I am a member) to quash social conservatives. I’m just calling him racist for daring to say that black people are innately better at sports than white people.

I don’t know if D’brickashaw really hates any particular racial group, but he’s obviously a weak asshole who is just out to bait me. He wants to make ridiculous statements and defend them with obviously manipulative tactics.

Oh, and he also asked me how many black friends I have. Turns out he has more black friends than I do.


I could describe things further, but for the sake of brevity, I’ll stop. It is hard for me to decide whether to put this in MPSIMS, IMHO, or Great Debates. I’m going to put it in IMHO because I’m not really interested in discussing race and hereditary ability (my position has been stated: differences could exist, but let’s not jump to conclusions). I want to know this:

Has anybody else faced the racialist bait and switch before?

I had a hard time reading beyond this. You realized at various times Jews were also the mainstay of the boxing and basketball professions. Yet you have a difficult time believing that thousands of years of putting stress on education won’t produce scholars and scientists?

Too late. :slight_smile:

Yes. I just walk away. It’s not a conversation worth having.

I imagine that it would have an enormous influence - but how enormous?

I can’t think of a time I’ve encountered it in person, but I’ve seen it on this board for sure.

Racist.

:smiley:

Marley23 raises an excellent point. You see discussions like this from time to time, and if you dig a bit to find one you might find some useful viewpoints. I think a common one goes like this: you probably feel you’re being baited because your friend is setting up the parameters of the conversation in a very narrow way - trying to force you down a path of “is A=true, and B=true, then it must be that A=B!”

You’re discussing a pretty nebulous topic. I don’t mean race, I mean people. You’re noting differences amongst people (A=true), and trying to see if it lines up along racial lines (B=true?). You can also do the same along political lines, economic lines, class lines, etc. And to some extent, there might be some relationships and in others, there might just be coincidences.

There’s a fancy Latin phrase for this: cum hoc ergo propter hoc, which means, “with this, therefore because of this.” Or, in my statistics class they used to just say, “correlation does not imply causation.” You might check college records and find that Jewish students have a higher GPA overall - that doesn’t necessarily mean there’s a relationship between those two facts.

Really, trying to pull out possible racial genetic differences in amongst the social, cultural, class, wealth, and geopolitical influences on a child’s development is like looking for a needle in a haystack.

Very enormous. You really think all those Indian-American kids who slaughter the white kids at the Scripps Spelling Bee (and make up comfortably under 1% of the population as a whole) are genetically predisposed to spell in their second language?

I think that those individual children are genetically predisposed to do so, since I have no doubts that natural gifts exist. Do I think that Indian-Americans are generally predisposed to be better at spelling, genetically? Probably not.

Ashkenazi Jews have, for the past century, been greatly over-represented in the upper echelons of all of the sciences (hard or social). Given the length and greatness of this success, I think it could be possible that heredity is one factor in the equation.
It might not be, however.

InkBlot pointed out that it is incredibly difficult to isolate the influence of racial genetic differences among other factors in a child’s development. I agree, which is why I wouldn’t want to jump to conclusions about the existence of such differences. I only want to assert that it is possible for them to exist in principle and that there is a solid chance that some actually do exist.

You know…forget the thread question, I’m mostly just flabbergasted that you’re actually friends with this person.

I am too, but crap hit the fan last night. His racialism/racism was much more extreme than previously.

I would say that it is possible for them to exist in principle and leave it at that.

Physical attributes are no easier to control for than intellectual ones, but it’s clear that African-origin communities outside Africa produce superior athletes than their counterpart non-African-origin communities or African communities in Africa.

This raises the interesting possibility that slavery created, in effect, a super-race: the strongest and fittest slaves worked plantations with the other strong, fit slaves, and through proximity were more likely to meet, marry and raise children with other strong, fit slaves. Weaker slaves became household servants, tutors, and so on.

I’ve seen the concept raised here before in GQ and GD and some people find it offensive, but it doesn’t imply anything with regard to any genetic trait other than physical attributes. In any case, it’s unlikely that African teams will ever dominate soccer or any other global sport. Africa turns out highly specialized athletes in highly specific sports in bunches (ie., distance running) but is hopeless in others.

My response here would be “Yeah, you are. You’re a racist, sexist jackass. Fuck off.” Because he is either racist or he is a real life troll and I’m not sure why you’d want either of those as a friend. It’s not like you’re going to change his mind. Not only is he not arguing honestly he’s simply not listening to you. He does not care what you think or say, he doesn’t want to understand you, he only wants to prove you wrong. I’ve met people like that and I can’t fathom hanging out with them voluntarily.

The things he’s saying, that races have inherently different capacities for achievement, is the definition of racism. Stating that people of a certain race only excel at something because of a genetic difference belittles their accomplishments. If you’re racist it’s a reassuring argument to make because instead of recognizing somebody’s hard work and talent as an individual person you can tell yourself that the only reason they’re better than you is due to an accident of nature. “This guy isn’t better than me at math because his parents valued education and made him study his ass off, it’s because he’s Asian.”

I really think it’s a way to deal with a sense of inferiority that, to a racist, shouldn’t be there. He’s <insert race here>, he should be the best! If he’s not, it’s time to start finding excuses why, because there’s no way it’s his own fault.

Yes, and it’s worth noting that prejudicial beliefs that members of a specific race are inherently good at something is just as bad as the prejudiced belief that members of a specific race are inherently bad at something.

Ask an Asian guy if he likes it when people assume he’s good at math.

Yeah, you can’t win this conversation. As the saying goes, “If you wrestle a pig you both end up covered in mud, but the pig enjoys it.”

You have to either say “Yes, you’re a racist fuck, and I’m not interested in hearing any more about it, so shut the hell up.”; or – and this is unllikely to be successful – get at the root of why, emotionally, he wants to believe this crap. Either with a real conversation about what emotional hurst he feels (good luck with that…you’re not a woman who’s just attractive enough to make him want to talk to you but not so attractive that he’s only thinking of sex the whole time, are you?) or by making fun of him personally whenever the racist crap comes up (“Oh, yeah right. If only you were black, then you could be an NBA star. Cause your skin color is what keeps your ass on the couch with a beer every day instead of out practicing your jump shot like a real basketball player.”) Repeat until he doesn’t bring that crap up anymore.

I like that you fake-named him D’Brickashaw. :wink:

I agree with this. That’s not a friend, that’s a selfish jerk. Personally, I would cut all ties with him.

There are some genetic predispositions that manifest along racial or ethnic lines: Sickle cell anemia and Tay-Sachs disease are two quick examples. Topics such as “intelligence” and “athletic ability” are so broad, so poorly defined, and probably so multi-variate that any notion of tying them to racial categories is impossible, and any attempt to do so is probably either ignorant or tendentious.

That’s not true. Intelligence is such a hazy concept because it’s impossible to measure it with perfect objectivity. Most aspects of athletic ability can be measured objectively quite easily- how fast do you run?, how high can you jump?, and so on.

It’s dumb to tie absolute predictions of athletic ability to race; there is no reason to believe that Average Person Of Mostly Sub-Saharan African Descent is likely to run a hundred meters faster than Average Person Of Mostly Western European Descent - but the facts clearly demonstrate that the fastest Person Of Mostly Sub-Saharan African Descent is almost certainly faster than the fastest Person Of Mostly Western European Descent.

This justice of the peace in Louisiana who refused to marry an interracial couple did a really nice job on TOBRaS: he said he thinks everyone is equal but the races shouldn’t mix because it just doesn’t work out in marriage, and he has “piles of black friends.”

“A pile,” of course, is the technically correct term for a large group of black people who are friends with a racist white guy. The term used to be “a plantation,” but that fell out of favor some time ago.

Remember the good old days when it was referred to as a boatload?