I don’t pretend that corporal punishment is a viable option for every parent who considers himself/herself black, or that black parenting is some of monolithic cross-socioeconomic cultural experience, or that I’m an expert on slavery.
But a few of my friends and I were out shopping at the grocery store about a month back when we saw a young black woman exasperated by the behavior of her three children, the oldest of whom couldn’t have been more than 7. Her oldest boy, would not let up: yelling, whining, tugging his mother’s arm, trying to eat candy off the shelves, running around the store. We were laughing about how hard on us our parents were (particularly our mamas) and how “they didn’t play that shit.” Almost all my friends (ages 28-33, 3 men, one woman) were willing to beat that child’s behind for the mother.
The conversation further revealed that all of us had been whipped at some time or another as children, some of us more severely and frequently than others. What was interesting to me were some of the items we were whipped with: hands, belts, shaving straps, broomstick handles, yardstick rulers, shoes, wood paddles, walking sticks, enema bags(!) and for nearly all of us, the ubiquitous 6" brown extension cord. The two of us who lived in the South got ‘cut’ with switches, too.
Now, once we got to switches, the thought occurred to me: when slaves got out of line, they were beaten, whipped, flogged – however you want to call it. Often the reasons were for laziness, willful disrespect, lying, stealing… the very offenses that aren’t tolerated by my friends with their kids who believe in corporal punishment and apply it vigorously. Comedian Chris Rock even has a bit about parents asking for trouble if they didn’t beat their kids the first time they mess up: “… the Lying, Cheating, Stealing and Disrespect Ass-Whippings,” as he called it
I mentioned all that to ask: among black parents, do you believe whipping is learned behavior, passed on from slavery?
I’m not asking for discussion on the harm or merit of corporal punishment.
why on earth are you presuming that corporal punishment is either indigenous to the black population or if it isn’t, then the reason that non black people beat their kids is from the reasons black parents do? Is there another way to interpret your question? Please???
wring: I’m wondering if if is, in fact, indigenous to African-American parents as a cultural more learned via slavery.
Or not.
Obviously I’m not saying EXCLUSIVELY black parents whip their kids. But black (American) parents seem to be, in my opinion and experience, more willing and vocal about it.
Hmm. Perhaps I did post this in the wrong forum. It didn’t quite seem like a ‘General Question’ because I’m not aware of any facts that can immediately support/refute my question.
Maybe I should ask, “Do You Think Black Parents Whip Their Kids With Switches, Belts, etc., Because Of Slavery?”
There’s a certain number of parents who accept varying levels of corporal punishment.
Of these parents, some are black, some are not. I have absolutely no data on relative percentages and cannot comment/ speculate if it’s more acceptable for those of one category or another.
Why are you assuming that of those parents in #1, that the rationale, the basis for this belief comes from a different source than the other parents in #1?
So, for example, the black parent does it 'cause of slavery issues, but the white parent does it 'cause their parents did it?
Okay – while I lack comparative percentages too, my own personal observatins as a teacher in rural white Republican South Carolina and as a teacher in an urban black school district in Ohio and teaching African immigrants, is that black American parents are generally more vocal and willing to, as I hear, “Beat my kids if they act up.” This is across socioeconomic boundaries, generally.
Well, there are cultural differences in child-rearing and what is acceptable discipline and what is not. For example, most of my African parents are for more willing to accept my authority than black parents. Most of them, as I understand it, so not whip their kids at all. I am wondering – perhaps even suggesting – that in addition to reasons others might use corporal punishment, black parents do so out of learned behavior from slavery, and child-rearing practices that may have evolved from that, too.
It’s not so much as a question of “different than” as it is, “in addition, too”. I’m sorry if my original phrasing suggested otherwise.
More vocal (ie ready to admit publically) /= (does not equal) more.
so, even if your personal experiences are accurately represented and are replicated across the board, you still don’t know that the one category actually does it more than the other. Also keep in mind that not all people talking about giving their child a ‘whoopin’ are serious. For example: I recall saying at one point to our family doctor “What do you think, 5 mg valium?” referring to my son, and no, I never did attempt to give him tranqs. (the doctor, thankfully, joked back by jerking his thumb upwards, suggesting the 10 mg. dosage).
But, be all that as it may (and it doesn’t really matter to the basis of your question), I’m still not understanding why you think that white parents (to pick one other group), would beat their kids for reason X, but black parents would beat their kids for reason Y.
My suspicion is that those who believe in the various levels of corporal punishment do so because of their own personal experiences in being raised.
and, of course, during slavery, IIRC, the children of the slave owners were also subject to corporal punishment.
the phrase ‘whipping’ to describe a level of corporal punishment may have a cultural base, I don’t know.
First, please keep in mind that “whipping” as was done to slaves as punishment back when slavery was legal in the Southern U.S., and “whipping” as is generally done to physically punish or correct a child are by no means the same thing.
Black slaves who were whipped were quite literally whipped – with actual whips, by overseers, while tied up and immobilized. They suffered lashes that might well draw blood and leave scars and that were intended to be incredibly painful. These lashes were administered over the slave’s bare back, shoulders, and buttocks, and had to be limited in number because excessive whipping could incapacitate or kill a slave. Whippings served not only to punish most severely the erring slave, but also to terrorize and cow the other slaves, who often were forced to watch.
People who talk about whipping a child, on the other hand, aren’t really talking about an actual whipping. (Or if they are, they should be reported for child abuse.) They mean a spanking, sometimes with an implement like a belt or a switch or a ruler. They mean a very few strokes to the child’s buttocks that obviously are not intended to seriously hurt the child but rather to correct it through the application of a very temporary hurt. (And I am not here commenting on the effacacy or morality of corporal punishment of children.) It seems to me that a 19th century slave who might whip his or her child’s butt for some wrongdoing would nevertheless be horrified to have that action compared to a whipping doled out by the overseer. They were not in any way comparable.
Second, it seems to me unlikely that a slave would visit upon his or her children, as a social matter passed on from generation to generation, the sort of vicious “punishment” inflicted by his or her white masters. To the contrary, that would be the precise action a loving parent would not want to turn around and do to his/her child. It seems to me more likely that a slave parent who drew that corrolation would therefore not physically punish his or her child at all, because he or she would not want to act like that in any way. So the fact that black families (even slaves) did and do physically correct their children would indicate they did not draw the parallel you are drawing. (I should clarify, like WRING, that I have no idea as to the incidence of spanking among black families, either currently or historically, but your hypothetical seems to presume both.)
Third, I don’t think spanking can be traced back to the whipping of slaves because historically virtually all children in the U.S. were physically corrected. That was not a feature of child-rearing unique to slaves or to blacks. Furthermore, in our modern society it is not just blacks who spank their children; other races do so as well, even though the practice has fallen out of favor across the country. I was spanked with hands and belts when I was a child – very rarely, but still – and my childhood was not in any way abusive. And I’m white, and not that old (33). If you attribute spanking in black families to a history of physical punishment of slaves, how do you account for the same conduct in white families with no such history?
I haven’t seen any suggestion to suggest that it is. Heck, the bible says something about sparing the rod and spoiling the child so I think corporal punishing is a bit deeper then slavery. My grandparents used to switch my mother and her brothers when they got to far out of line. I think that perhaps your premise may be faulty. I don’t really know if black parents are more likely to use corporal punishment then anyone else and for those that do I fail to see why slavery had any impact.
Hmmm. I’m not so sure I agree with that. I think it depends on the belief system that’s discussed. People, particularly parents, are usually pretty vocal about their beliefs regarding child-rearing and discipline and are usually more than willing to share them with like-minded people. Or defend them against people who don’t share them.
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Well, that’s why I’m on the SDMB, I guess.
In my capacity as a teacher, if a parent decides to volunteer this information in regards to discipline at home or at school, they are usually very serious in intent – even if they don’t always follow through. In my experience, it’s just not joked about much – unless we’re talking about our own experiences getting whipped. (Oh, and black people say “whuppin’”-- thank you very much! Whoopin’ is the noise you heard on the Arsenio Hall Show.)
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But, be all that as it may (and it doesn’t really matter to the basis of your question), I’m still not understanding why you think that white parents (to pick one other group), would beat their kids for reason X, but black parents would beat their kids for reason Y.
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Okay! Maybe now I can describe my notion.
To me, it’s more like white parents beat their kids for Reasons X + Y, Somali parents do not beat their kids, and black American parents beat their kids for Reasons X + Y + Z… where ‘motive’ is = X, ‘methods’ is = ‘Y’ and Z is = ‘because of certain learned behaviors from a specific era in your cultural history handed down through generations.’
Hope that helps.
Agreed. I could also add, ‘no longer believe’…
Not always, I think we can agree, for the same offenses and actions. Or punished the same way. Consider the probable reaction of a plantation owner who comes across a white child and a black child trying to read a book that was taken without permission from his library. Or if the same two children who spoke to white adults while looking them directly in the eyes.
I’m beginning to suspect it does, at least, imply a different cultural connotation. For example – what do you mean, exactly, when you say ‘level’ of corporal punishment?
the reason for the punishment isn’t material to the method of punishment and it’s replication through the generations, tho.
“levels of corporal punishment” to me: Some people believe that one should never use physical punishment. Others think an occasional swat on the behind is ok, but only up to certain ages, and only w/the hand. I’ve also known people who only use a belt etc. (“the hand should be a loving thing, not a punishment thing” was the rationale I heard).
My personal experience (as a professional in the corrections community), among my co workers etc. - some minorities, some whites would use physical punishments. I did find that the white ones were less likely to talk about it/admit it. For example, I believe that this one woman admitted it to only me - I was a close friend. (again among the ‘professionals’). Among the lower socioeconomic group (ie the clients for example, and their families), many did, few did not use. Some were more likely to talk about it though.
From casual conversations at the school (I was a very, very active parent in the school district) and among those in rehab, I did notice that some parents were pretty vocal about it, but others were non commital. However, the one family where I knew for certain that severe levels of abuse had gone on were absolutely silent on the matter. they were white.
ANd, of course, we all know that this means nothing, but anecdotes.
Yes, I’ve heard people joking about it - as I alluded to earlier, I"ve made public statements about ‘kicking my kid into the next county’. Nope, never have, never would. And, some people overhearing might have thought I was serious. But I"ve also threatened to feed him cardboard with sauce on it, too. and to keep him locked up til he’s 35.
I guess I don’t see how we could possibly ascertain if blacks who use CP on their kids do so because of reasons X Y & Z where Z was the slavery issue, X was 'cause that’s how they were raised, Y 'cause of local customs.
What am I doing wrong, that I can’t get that EDIT button to work and let me fix that post with the incorrect quote use a few posts back? Man, that’s irritating.
Jodi: I don’t dispute your first point at all, but I have problems with points 2 (especially) and 3.
See, I’m trying to find a book cite, or a specific historical subject, or an online slave narrative link to dispute your totally erroneous notion that black slave parents – those few who were permitted to raise their own children, anyway-- would not have beat the hell out of their kids for being disrespectful, not doing their share of work or for wanting more food when there was none available – out of a misguided sense of parental duty. That’s just – wrong. It happened. Maybe not with whips or the severity of an angry overseer, but it was a part of the brutal reality of slavery and part of my own premise: the learned (mis)behavior of slaveowners was passed along.
Now granted, in the 21st century, this country doesn’t routinely physically punish children as often nor as severely as it did at the turn of the 19th century, or even at the turn of the 20th. The degree of personal violence visited upon children for disciplinary purposes has been markedly mitigated even in MY lifetime. You’re 33, I’m 31 – and I remember been spanked in public and parochial school and that a trip to the principal’s office meant getting a paddling. Doesn’t hardly happen anymore. Agreed?
Yet from my own personal experiences and observations – misleading as inductive reasoning can be, I can’t ignore the evidence of my eyes – the indicidence of spanking does not appear to be all mitigated among black parents to the degree it appears to be in the rest of American society. I say that with some compelling suspicion about the state of corporal punishment in current black parenting, while knowing that the best indicator of present and future behavior is past behavior. If a lot of black parents are spanking now and openly approve of it – dispite societal disdain – a lot of their parents and their parents were probably doing it, too.
If there are too many more responses to this post by the time I hit the ‘Reply’ button, I’m going to call it a night and get back with you guys tomorrow. I wasn’t prepared for this level of interest.
Amarinth, thank you for that link to the article. Very interesting.
Okay, I was going to sleep on this and do this tomorrow, but then I thought about this as I was lying down and I’m not going to get any sleep until I type this out.
Other posters did not know how much more often black parents resort to spanking. I knew there was, just wasn’t sure how to prove it. Then I suddenly realized that there MUST be a vast majority of black parents who spank their children because of how acceptable – and sometimes esteemed – whipping is seen as a method of punishment in our (by ‘our’, I mean African-American) popular culture. I do not mean “spanking”. To me, that always implied just a smack on the bottom with one’s hand. No, I mean a whupping, with a belt or a hickory switch or a hairbrush or something. )
African-Americans entertainers – who have always reached a mass audience – could not make a living, could not get uproarious laughs, could not win over the affections of their audiences, sometimes to the tune of millions of dollars by joking about something black audiences (as opposed to multiracial crossover audiences) didn’t care for or were openly hostile to.
Based on that realization alone, I guess that upwards of 90% of black parents actively practice some level or method of corporal punishment, – the rest either indifferent or undecided, and only a decided minority actively disapproving.
Moreover, here’s a partial list of popular black entertainers – interestingly enough, mostly male – comedians, singers and writers who have talked about whipping their kids, or getting whupped as a child:
Eddie Murphy
Chris Rock
Terry McMillan
Bill Cosby
Steve Harvey
Bernie Mac
D.L. Hughley
Cedric the Entertainer
Langston Hughes
Oprah Winfrey
Alex Haley
Damon Wayans
Martin Lawrence
Virginia Hamilton
Walter Mosely
Nathan McCall
I wasn’t even including rappers (like Will Smith, maybe Tupac) former celebrities, (Gary Coleman) or movie directors (Singleton, Lee). These are just the ones I could think of off the top of my head.
…all except that bit about most Africans using corporal punishment. I wonder if this was the case prior to slavery and colonialization? I may have to look into that; it almost derails my argument. I’m anxious to see what others of you think about it.
wring: thank you for sharing. While I disagree with how casually you seem to dismiss anectdotal evidence(!), I appreciate your noting how differences in one’s profession or socioeconomic level may attribute to – if not the actual USE of corporal punishment – how loudly one ADMITS to using it. I think another cultural difference between black and white America is that black parents, overall, don’t seem to care who knows how they discipline their kids (it may be different among black executives working in corporate America – but how many is that, compared to the masses?)
We can try some deductive reasoning.
If you can accept that people in other cultures use CP because ‘that’s how they were raised’, try to see accept that maybe today’s African-American blacks ‘whup’ their kids with belts because THEIR parents were beaten with leather straps as kids, and THEIR parents were beaten with leather straps as kids, and THEIR parents were beaten with leather straps as kids, until you get to that first group of African captives who were beaten with leather straps as punishment and as a means to acheive obedience. Note that it seems to be mostly African-Americans who even use the term, “whippings” when referring to physically reprimanding children.
The name ‘whipping’ comes from slavery, the method used (leather strap and other supple variations) is reminiscent of slavery, the general approval from black parents who can testify of its effectiveness in achieving submission and obedience goes way back, back, back – at least to slavery.
If there’s anyone still wondering why I keep harping on slavery. I guess its the numbers… only 10% of the American population is black, and yet the majority or this minority still ‘whups’ their kids despite the (public) disapproval of the rest of the nation? What other cultural experience accounts for that?
In fact, it could account for the differences why white children and black children perceive spankings differently, as Amarinth’s link cited. Black parents may ‘whup ass’, but they are also very particular about who has permission to whip their child.
Smell that? That’s not cigarettes. That’s a smoking gun.
Your observations about the corporal punishment patterns of black parents vs. white parents is somewhat correct to the degree that in the last 30 years or so, most middle class white parents have become a lot more tentative about applying corporal punishment, and even if they do punish a child they are a lot less likely to voice this threat or intent publicly. I am 44 years old and when I was growing up it was not uncommon for mothers and fathers in my parent’s professional, upper middle class social group to spank and switch misbehaving children with regularity.
Having said this, it was still a lot more common (in general) for children to be more directly and immediately punished physically the lower you went down the socio-economic ladder. In addition it was less likely for corporal punishment in poorer or less educated families to come with an elaborate explanation of your transgression and a guilt trip attached.
Many current, black middle class and black lower middle class parents are not more than a generation or two removed from an existence of borderline poverty and want as the socio-economic norm for their social cohort, and the mores regarding corporal punishment in situations where people (irrespective of race) are living on the edge of subsistence are a lot different than for people in run of the mill middle class existences. In addition there are regional differences in attitudes towards corporal punishment. As a child of white, very well educated, quasi-liberal southern parents let me assure you that those liberal attitudes did not extend to sparing the belt or the switch when we did something especially outrageous, and our lily white grandparent’s attitudes towards corporal punishment were about on a par with what you are describing as current black attitudes.
Now, as to the linkage of slave whipping to child whipping this is so absurd and contrived as to defy belief that you are going to reach into the antebellum south to somehow explain why a frustrated Ms. Jones is threatening misbehaving little Christopher with an “ass whipping”, instead of telling him he “owns his anger” and making him sit in a time out chair. Puh-leeze. No make that a double Puh-leeze. Other cultural groups (including middle class white until recently) routinely employed corporal punishment and the threat of “ass whippings”. The specific term “ass whipping” was employed as both a threat and a promise more than once by my white daddy with a PHD from Cornell with his children. You’re trying to make this use of the word “whipping” something specific to to black people and it just isn’t.
Black people are more vocal about incipient corporal punishment because that is the way they were raised by their parents and it was the norm for their social cohort. Black people will slowly fall into line over time with the more pervasive middle class attitudes about corporal punishment the longer they spend as creatures of the middle and upper middle class and adopt it’s conventions.
Re your linked article I just read you might not want to puff out your chest with a hearty “Boo-yaaa! SEE!?! I tole you!” just yet. If you read the article carefully you will notice that it’s claims for ass whipping = slave whipping are about as well substantiated as the claims you make for it in your OP (ie not that well at all).
Here is the weighty “evidence” asserted in the article for this linkage.
In other words it’s nothing more than an opinion that is not supported by anything other than a heartfelt “because I believe it is true and I assert that it is so”. If I were you I would not rest my weighty hypothesis on this slender reed.