Blue passports: Is this the real purpose behind Brexit?

Well, maybe it is more exact to say there is water around the UK/Eire common travel area. The water has proved useful for keeping out Continental armies from time to time and it makes for an easy-to-define border. Countries on mainland Europe do not have that benefit. Their borders change often, they get invaded and occupied. Stopping all that is one of the reasons the EU is such and attractive proposition to them.

The old Italian paper ID card was/is the forgers friend and they get particular scrutiny when entering the UK. The UK does not have an ID card. We had that argument and decided it was a daft idea, so the government beefed up the security on passport (and hiked the prices.) The UK takes border security very seriously and is quite aligned to the US in this respect. Lots of impressive looking facial recognition scanners and other technology of dubious value on display. They make a big show of it.

How they are going to deal with border procedures after Brexit is one of the big questions. Lots of potential for bottlenecks and queues at the ports and airports on both sides of the border. A blue passport is no cure for that. :frowning:

The point about this announcement, or at least about making it now, is that it’s a Christmas week distractor from the government’s other woes - something shiny for the tabloids, along with the Defence Secretary’s hoo-ha over the Army recruitment slogan (it is of course entirely coincidental that his appointment to the job upset a lot of traditional Tories).

Politics as trivially usual.

Certainly economic consequences are less considered than cultural identity, community values and control of borders. Somehow, that became a bad thing to high horse liberals.

Britain has been conquered / invaded plenty of times. The coast is a clear border and is easy to defend, but not a perfect defense. And of course the same is true of the geographical features that define many of the borders in Europe, like the Alps.

I haven’t noticed any new security when entering the UK. Can you think of a specific thing that the UK is using and continental Europe is not?

Anyway, I think it’s very misleading to look at security procedures for people moving between Schengen countries and imply security is lax on the continent. The whole point is that the hard border is the zone itself as all member countries are supposed to implement the same security procedures for people coming in from outside.
You may as well say that since I can move freely between Birmingham and Edinburgh that the UK doesn’t take security seriously.

[quote=“Mijin, post:24, topic:805104”]

Britain has been conquered / invaded plenty of times. The coast is a clear border and is easy to defend, but not a perfect defense. And of course the same is true of the geographical features that define many of the borders in Europe, like the Alps.

Oh yes, I was forgetting about the Romans a couple of thousand years ago and then there was the Normans and Viking raids a thousand years ago. But that was rather a long time before the a nation state with an navy was established. The sea provided a barrier and means of defence against invasion by the Spanish in the 16th centrury, the Dutch in the 17th, the French in the 18th and 19th and the Germans in the 20th. With this history it is unsurprising that attitudes within the UK to the Continental Europe are the way they are. Mainland Europe has a sad history of national rivalries and revolutions turning into wars that rearrange the borders on a regular basis. The sea has been the means by which the UK defends itself from invasion by huge Continental land armies by maintaining a powerful navy and exercising border controls at the major ports.

The UK policy is to beef up security at the border. The unique arrangement with France to extend UK border checks to the Calais is part of that. Did you not hear about the refugee camps at Calais?

Over the past few years there has been about a millon refugees a year entering the EU through Spain, Italy and Greece and there was a rather a big row between EU countries about differences in border security policy within the EU. The EU has leaky borders and no agreed policy about dealing with the refugee crisis. It is a disgraceful state of affairs that has been source of much tension between EU states that has reached the courts. The way the EU handled the Syrian refugee crisis was apalling.

The UK developed its own policy quite seperately from the EU that maintained its border security and attempted to deal directly, vetting refugees directly from the camps next to the war zone.

There are many factors that contributed towards the Brexit decision and the perception that the EU is bad for the UK. Differences regarding the control over borders is one of them and the new beefed up security in UK passport is consistent with that.

For the record, I voted to remain in the EU. While I can criticise the EU for many things. I think the UK should have remained part of it and attempt to reform it internally.

The blue passport issue is just a bit of raw meat thrown to anti-EU newshounds to chew while they wait for the next installment of this wearisome drama. But underlying it, there are many fundamental policy differences that were never really discussed in any depth.

Um, that one was successful. Glorious Revolution - Wikipedia “William’s successful invasion of England with a Dutch fleet and army led to his ascension to the throne as William III of England jointly with his wife, Mary II”

That was more a not unexpected development in an ongoing political crisis in which one side invited him in. Mary was the next heir anyway, and he was in his own right, through his mother, the nearest male Protestant heir (and one with a record of successfully fending off Louis XIV). Not quite the same thing as a foreign conquest.

I had one - they were pretty awful quality compared to the red ones, and less convenient (probably designed to fit in the inside pocket of a blazer).
I also remember the stupid fuss everyone made when we switched from blue to red. Same stupid, bleating fuss that accompanies many a change (I don’t know if that attitude is uniquely British, but we do make an art form of it).

Are you suggesting that Britain has been less warlike or interested in conquest?

You were contrasting UK border security with security on the continent. I don’t think it’s a good example to cite the border security at Calais. It’s not a case of them failing to beef up security, it’s that they choose between schengen countries to allow free movement.

“Leak” implies some error or breakage but schengen by design operates essentially as one country with respect to immigration.
I agree with you that that means they should have agreed a single policy for the refugee crisis, and ideally the UK should have been part of that discussion (even though we’re not part of schengen we will be affected by such decisions and frankly we should be pulling our own weight too).
Vetting in the refugee camps near the conflict probably does make sense, but some european countries of course don’t have the luxury of only accepting asylum seekers via that route.

Agreed, and FTR I do agree that concerns over border security and immigration is at least a valid point WRT brexit.
The stuff about us saving money, or not having to accept “bendy banana” rules from brussels or whatever was horseshit.

Agreed.

It is just to show that America doesnt have a monopoly on ignorant racist xenophobes there are plenty in every nation. That was the basis why Joe Crumpet voted for Brexit.

Is it what Brexit was all about? Well, certain newspapers would have you believe that but Christ, we’re not quite that stupid.

No, it was just voting for something different. People wanted something different. They won’t get it in any real way except for the passport but I don’t think the actual colour of the passport really mattered that much to most people.

It’s a fairly trivial change - in any case the present format comes from multinational agreements about the format of passports, not just the EU. And we aren’t going to go back to the old pre-computer-readable black ones in any event. Although those ones with the bit about 'His Britannic Majesty’s Principal Secretary of State for Foreign and Colonial Affairs requests and requires … ’ certainly looked nicer.

Here are a few reasons why people voted for Brexit, in no partiicular order:

  • A protest vote by people left behind in the ‘rust belt’ against what they regard as the self serving political elite in Westminster.

Most developed Western countries have been through a de-industrialisation that has left many people feeling left behind by economic change that has traded the working class jobs in industry for the soft skiills of the services businesses that now are the big employers. In the UK the big employers with factories, shipyards and mines were once centres of political power. That world has gone and those left behind do not understand how the modern world with all its customer/service provider metaphors and internet fripperies that are quite lost on the older generation of voters.

  • A vote for sovereign UK and rejection of the creeping Federalism of an EU and laws enacted in Brussels.

For the past few decades the anti-EU press have entertained its readers about absurd rules being imposed on the UK by the EU. They seldom explain it in the context of a single market of 500m people that require common standards to make it work. The economic benefits to the UK were never explained.

  • Several decades of anti-EU stories peddled by the sensationalist press

Several very popular newpapers have long promoted sensationally negative stories about the EU such that its image is one of wastefulness, bureacracy, stupid laws, uncontrolled immigration, crime and a whole host of other ills that seek to undermine the UK. Very few positive stories ever appeared that explain what it does and its value. Many of the most voluble politicians regarded it as something that the UK would do well to abandon and the socially conservative press gave their views a wide circulation.

  • A vote against immigration.

The UK saw a huge influx of EU workers when Poland and seven other countries joined the EU in 2004 and later Romania and Bulgaria in 2007. The UK government at the time decided against a phased approach that many other EU countries opted for and allowed free movement labour from these countries with few restrictions. The rules for Romanians and Bulgarians were restricted, but certainly not enough to moderate the numbers coming over to seek work in the UK. This had a big affect on the economy. Employers greatly appreciated the skills and flexibility of EU migrants: it was good for business. The working classes were far less impressed. They worried about job competition, depressed wages and the strain on public services, particularly housing. Their fears were made worse by a procession of sensationalist stories about crime, begging, social security fraud and other ills that come when people move to find work.

To be fair the government did not really handle it very well and certainly did not anticipate the numbers coming over. They could have made it easier. The UK does not have a great track record on handling immigration. They tend to change the rules and just hope for the best, hoping people will move to where the jobs and are located and not strain the local services too much.

  • The Syrian refugee crisis

The Syrian refugee crisis and the millons entering the EU and trying to reach the wealthier northern countries with developed public health, welfare and education systems was a big worry. There was chaos in the EU and huge camp developed in Calais in France with thousands of impoverished refugees trying to get across the English Channel to England. The arguments between EU countries over who should allow which immigrants to cross what borders fed the arguments against the EU migration generally as being quite out of control and a threat, especially after ISIS inspired terrorist attacks.

  • The Euro crisis

The 2008 financial crisis caused severe strains across the EU, especially in Greece. The UK counted its blessings that they were not part of the Euro zone and were protected from some of the economic consequences by having control over its own currency. EU policy seemed to be overwhelmingly inflienced by German priorities.

  • The cost to the UK of EU membership and the NHS.

The subcription to the EU was very exaggerated and the argument was made that this money could be far better spent on the NHS. Most people have no idea of the figures involved. It sounded a lot and the NHS in the UK enjoys an alomost religious devotion, especially by the elderly who use it services the most. Every politician knows that any threat to the NHS mades people very worried. The Brexit campaign played on these fears very heavily. They argued all the money spent on the EU could be spent on the NHS to improve the strains on health services.

  • The divided history of the Conservative Party

The trading links across the world that came with the Empire and the lessons of WW2 and the importance placed on a close alliance with the US contribute to a world view known as Atlanticism. Conversely looking to Europe for new trade links and agreeing Europe-wide standards in many areas to promote peace and prosperity is known as Continentalism. The Conservatives have been divided over the issue for forty years and the tide of sentiment swings back and forth and it is the basis of rivalries and challenges to the party leadership.

  • The conduct of the EU referendum

Referenda are not frequent in the UK, it is a representative democracy. The public vote for MPs who made decisions about economic matters and international treaties on their behalf. In contrast with the Scottish referendum, where the Scots had very long national conversation about the whole issue and heard all the arguments for and against before they voted. The campaigns did little to educate and inform the public about the many and varied aspects of EU membership. It was decided to hold the referendum on the basis of a simple majority rather than a minumum percentage such as 60:40 and we ended up with a 52:48.

No-one explained the UK voters about the Irish border question, the complications over the status of EU nationals in the UK and UK nationals in the EU, nor the ‘divorce bill’ estimated at £40billion. If these facts were made clear prior to the vote, the result might have been very different. The Referendum was held, not in the UK national interest, but solely to solve an internal problem within the UK Conservative party, which has always been divided on the issue. It was a rash gamble the Prime Minister, David Cameron lost. He did it because he knew he would soon face challenges to his leadership from within his own party and this was an attempt to head off the issue by involving the UK voters in deciding on a very complex issue.

Despite this small margin and ‘advisory’ status of the vote, it has nonetheless been elevated as a sacrosanct ‘Will of the People’ by the small number of Brexit politicians and the Euro sceptic pres. Politicians from all parties are worried over the consequences of going against the decision, no matter what the consequences. The Referendum result has been assumed, by default, to have a huge constitutional significance that was never planned for or expected and has never been tested. Much of this perception has been promoted by the Brexit wing of the Conservative party and their fratricidal squabbling and fear of losing votes to the UKIP party. The Labour Party behaved little better, anxious not the alienate the Eurosceptic working class vote on which they depend. They are all frightened of the mood of nationalistic populism that seems to be affecting many countries.

Only the smaller political parties campaigned to remain in EU and the leave campaign had some big contributions from some prominent businessmen who help finance social media campaigning.

The Referendum was a simple question about a very complex subject put to a public that had little real understanding of what the EU is and few concrete facts on which to base their decision. Little wonder that it became common for people to project all kinds of interpretations onto the vote, with a heavy reliance of emotion and uninformed prejudice. It was wholly irresponsible gamble by Cameron to solve an internal party political problem. It did not solve that problem at all and instead created a much bigger issue for the country as a whole that will perplex and frustrate governments for some years to come.

Sadly, there does not seem to be any easy answer coming from any other political party that stands a chance of winning an election. There remain a large number of unanswered questions about what exactly Brexit means and what the consequences will be for the UK.

Here are a few reasons why people voted for Brexit, in no partiicular order:

  • A protest vote by people left behind in the ‘rust belt’ against what they regard as the self serving political elite in Westminster.

Most developed Western countries have been through a de-industrialisation that has left many people feeling left behind by economic change that has traded the working class jobs in industry for the soft skiills of the services businesses that now are the big employers. In the UK the big employers with factories, shipyards and mines were once centres of political power. That world has gone and those left behind do not understand how the modern world with all its customer/service provider metaphors and internet fripperies that are quite lost on the older generation of voters.

  • A vote for sovereign UK and rejection of the creeping Federalism of an EU and laws enacted in Brussels.

For the past few decades the anti-EU press have entertained its readers about absurd rules being imposed on the UK by the EU. They seldom explain it in the context of a single market of 500m people that require common standards to make it work. The economic benefits to the UK were never explained.

  • Several decades of anti-EU stories peddled by the sensationalist press

Several very popular newpapers have long promoted sensationally negative stories about the EU such that its image is one of wastefulness, bureacracy, stupid laws, uncontrolled immigration, crime and a whole host of other ills that seek to undermine the UK. Very few positive stories ever appeared that explain what it does and its value. Many of the most voluble politicians regarded it as something that the UK would do well to abandon and the socially conservative press gave their views a wide circulation.

  • A vote against immigration.

The UK saw a huge influx of EU workers when Poland and seven other countries joined the EU in 2004 and later Romania and Bulgaria in 2007. The UK government at the time decided against a phased approach that many other EU countries opted for and allowed free movement labour from these countries with few restrictions. The rules for Romanians and Bulgarians were restricted, but certainly not enough to moderate the numbers coming over to seek work in the UK. This had a big affect on the economy. Employers greatly appreciated the skills and flexibility of EU migrants: it was good for business. The working classes were far less impressed. They worried about job competition, depressed wages and the strain on public services, particularly housing. Their fears were made worse by a procession of sensationalist stories about crime, begging, social security fraud and other ills that come when people move to find work.

To be fair the government did not really handle it very well and certainly did not anticipate the numbers coming over. They could have made it easier. The UK does not have a great track record on handling immigration. They tend to change the rules and just hope for the best, hoping people will move to where the jobs and are located and not strain the local services too much.

  • The Syrian refugee crisis

The Syrian refugee crisis and the millons entering the EU and trying to reach the wealthier northern countries with developed public health, welfare and education systems was a big worry. There was chaos in the EU and huge camp developed in Calais in France with thousands of impoverished refugees trying to get across the English Channel to England. The arguments between EU countries over who should allow which immigrants to cross what borders fed the arguments against the EU migration generally as being quite out of control and a threat, especially after ISIS inspired terrorist attacks.

  • The Euro crisis

The 2008 financial crisis caused severe strains across the EU, especially in Greece. The UK counted its blessings that they were not part of the Euro zone and were protected from some of the economic consequences by having control over its own currency. EU policy seemed to be overwhelmingly inflienced by German priorities.

  • The cost to the UK of EU membership and the NHS.

The subcription to the EU was very exaggerated and the argument was made that this money could be far better spent on the NHS. Most people have no idea of the figures involved. It sounded a lot and the NHS in the UK enjoys an alomost religious devotion, especially by the elderly who use it services the most. Every politician knows that any threat to the NHS mades people very worried. The Brexit campaign played on these fears very heavily. They argued all the money spent on the EU could be spent on the NHS to improve the strains on health services.

  • The divided history of the Conservative Party

The trading links across the world that came with the Empire and the lessons of WW2 and the importance placed on a close alliance with the US contribute to a world view known as Atlanticism. Conversely looking to Europe for new trade links and agreeing Europe-wide standards in many areas to promote peace and prosperity is known as Continentalism. The Conservatives have been divided over the issue for forty years and the tide of sentiment swings back and forth and it is the basis of rivalries and challenges to the party leadership.

  • The conduct of the EU referendum

Referenda are not frequent in the UK, it is a representative democracy. The public vote for MPs who made decisions about economic matters and international treaties on their behalf. In contrast with the Scottish referendum, where the Scots had very long national conversation about the whole issue and heard all the arguments for and against before they voted. The campaigns did little to educate and inform the public about the many and varied aspects of EU membership. It was decided to hold the referendum on the basis of a simple majority rather than a minumum percentage such as 60:40 and we ended up with a 52:48.

No-one explained the UK voters about the Irish border question, the complications over the status of EU nationals in the UK and UK nationals in the EU, nor the ‘divorce bill’ estimated at £40billion. If these facts were made clear prior to the vote, the result might have been very different. The Referendum was held, not in the UK national interest, but solely to solve an internal problem within the UK Conservative party, which has always been divided on the issue. It was a rash gamble the Prime Minister, David Cameron lost. He did it because he knew he would soon face challenges to his leadership from within his own party and this was an attempt to head off the issue by involving the UK voters in deciding on a very complex issue.

Despite this small margin and ‘advisory’ status of the vote, it has nonetheless been elevated as a sacrosanct ‘Will of the People’ by the small number of Brexit politicians and the Euro sceptic pres. Politicians from all parties are worried over the consequences of going against the decision, no matter what the consequences. The Referendum result has been assumed, by default, to have a huge constitutional significance that was never planned for or expected and has never been tested. Much of this perception has been promoted by the Brexit wing of the Conservative party and their fratricidal squabbling and fear of losing votes to the UKIP party. The Labour Party behaved little better, anxious not the alienate the Eurosceptic working class vote on which they depend. They are all frightened of the mood of nationalistic populism that seems to be affecting many countries.

Only the smaller political parties campaigned to remain in EU and the leave campaign had some big contributions from some prominent businessmen who help finance social media campaigning.

The Referendum was a simple question about a very complex subject put to a public that had little real understanding of what the EU is and few concrete facts on which to base their decision. Little wonder that it became common for people to project all kinds of interpretations onto the vote, with a heavy reliance of emotion and uninformed prejudice.

As the government struggles with the issues that are arising during the negotiations, it is beginning to dawn on the UK voters that they have been sold a can of worms.:frowning: Many people thought it was simply a case of calling the bank and cancelling a subscription to a club you want to leave and that would be that.

It will be interesting to see whether the tide of sentiment will change as it becomes clear that it is going to be expensive, difficult and take many years to achieve. That it depends not simply on the sovereign will of the British people, but the interests of all the other countries in the world with which we trade who owe us few favours.

On the other hand, maybe the warm words the US President had for the Brexit decision will herald a new era in US-UK trade? We will send Boris over to do a deal. What could possibly go wrong?:rolleyes:

This is evidence that Brexit supporters aren’t stupid?

There’s more than enough stupid on both sides (as well as a little smart) I know people who voted Remain because they’re just frightened of the unknown, but can’t pinpoint any specific concern; I know others who voted Leave because they believe in mythical Daily Mail nonsense like EU regulations about bananas.

I had been planning for a while to apply for US citizenship, but after Trump was elected I soured on the idea a bit. After all, I’m brown and vaguely Muslim-looking so I might need to run away at any minute.

The Leave crowd is making me question the utility of that decision.

That was my first reaction when I saw the Daily Flail or whatever trumpeting this: it’s not even the right fucking colour, you idiots.

That’s all well and good, but why was this major decision made in just one vote. By a bare majority? I think Brexit should have required several votes at a minimum. I’ve read some speculation that now that it is apparent to the general public that the costs of Brexit are going to exceed the benefits, if another vote was held, the public would probably vote against it this time.

Why the heck should an election that many voters didn’t attend, that was made when the airwaves were full of open lies about the alleged benefits, be considered final and binding and irrevocable?

To be fair, the decision to join the EU was made without even one plebiscite (there was a referendum on joining the Common Market in 1975, but that was much less significant than the EU would be in the future).

Also add that they made it very difficult for brits abroad to vote. I jumped through all the hoops and at the last minute they said there was some irregularity (I don’t even remember what) and my vote wouldn’t count.

The thing is, the government boxed themselves into a corner. The euroskeptics had long moaned that a vote would not be a true, binding vote, or would not present a real, “out means out” option. So to appease this group not only was the referendum called but it was a simple “in out” choice, and the government pledged it would be a final, “no backsies” vote. Based on public opinion at the time, it was seen as basically certain that Remain would win, and the euroskeptics would be shut up forever.
It was a gamble, and now we all lose.

Indeed. There was a referendum as to whether to join a straight forward trading block - 40 years ago.

Since which I don’t recall being asked my view at any point, even on fundamental matters such as joining the euro, legal precedent, border control and rate of immigration.

Fwiw, the last straw for me was this policy - letting refugees drown in the Med if their boat went down outside Itailian waters. Done in my name with zero publicity or consultation: