On a recent cross-time trip to get nekkid pictures of Grace Kelly …
Ah, screw the setup. I’m feeling lazy.
When the [del]Nine[/del] Eight Walkers entered Lothlorien, Boromir, more than any of his companions, is dismayed by the gaze of Galadriel, feeling as if she could peer into his soul. I’ve always imagined that she actually could, and that she was trying to warn him of the spiritual danger his [del]lust for the One Ring[/del] concern for the fate of Gondor was leading him into. Let’s say that I’m right. Let’s further imagine that, being essentially noble, he took her warning to heart and confessed to the other Companions of the Ring that he feared what he would do if he remained in their company, and thus parted from them at Lorien. Practically speaking, I expect he’d have needed to absent himself from any discussions of their plans, and to remain in the golden wood until after they had left, going to Gondor by a path of his choosing.
How might the quest have gone differently from that point.
No, you can’t see the naked Grace Kelly pictures. Cry all you want.
joining the ring bearer, beginning from elrond’s house, is a binding contract. anyone who was present during the council already knew too much and was at risk. if boromir returned to gondor, he might have been trapped for information or killed by his own father, both on sauron’s bidding.
something all aragorn secret diary writers missed: “if he bolts or chirps, i’ll kill him and carry his head on a spike to remind others in the fellowship.”
I doubt Galadriel would have even let Boromir leave Lothlorien, for fear he’d yield to temptation, follow the Fellowship and attempt to grab the Ring, or would go back to Minas Tirith, tell ol’ Dad what happened and thus lead to cavalry setting forth from Gondor to seize the alluring band of gold. More likely she’d disarm Boromir and place him under pleasant but no less confining “house arrest” until the result of Frodo’s quest was known. His absence would have made little difference to later events with the Fellowship, I suspect. The Uruk-hai were still likely to catch up with the Fellowship at Amon Hen or thereabouts, and Frodo was still likely to make the same despairing calculations and to strike off on his own towards Mordor, with Sam following. Denethor would be marginally more polite to Gandalf and Pippin, having not learned of Boromir’s death, but not so much that it would change the course of events.
And apropos of the “If LOTR had been made in the 1950s” thread, it’s nice to imagine Grace Kelly as Eowyn, Galadriel, or even Arwen.
Let me guess: You went to an alternate timeline where the books and subsequent movies came out much earlier, Grace Kelly played one of the leads, and had a nude scene in the film, right?
But back on topic (or at least, the other topic), wasn’t Frodo’s decision to set out on his own prompted by Boromir’s attempt on the Ring? Without that, I’d expect that the Fellowship would head for Mordor all together. Which might certainly have gone worse: The larger group would be more likely to attract attention, Gollum would be more likely to have gotten killed before Frodo could stop it, and Merry and Pippin wouldn’t have had the chance to rouse the Ents and help to muster Rohan and Gondor. I fear that even if the whole Fellowship were able to make it to Mount Doom, it wouldn’t have been until after Saruman had crushed Rohan under his boot, and Sauron the same for Minas Tirith.
Which really, all fits in with the Professor’s concept of eucatastrophe and divine providence: Boromir’s attack on Frodo was certainly an evil act, but it nonetheless served to get all of the Fellowship to exactly where they needed to be.
^
not exactly. the other elf strongholds (rivendell, lorien, the havens) were already active and would certainly rouse the men strongholds to stand (rohan, gondor, beornings, the northern lake.) i’m pretty sure this was their plan as they reckoned the entire followship would make a bee line to mount doom.
and that’s only one planned alternative. aragorn and boromir (at least one of them) really planned to help defend gondor.
And Galadriel would not have made the mistake of offering unasked for counsel in the form of warnings. She knew damn well that advice was a very dangerous thing from all the tragedy of the First Age.
Aragorn said after Boromir had died and Frodo had left that he had envisioned a smaller group, consisting of Frodo, himself, Gimli, and Sam heading off to Mordor around Amon Hen, leaving the others to go to rally Minas Tirith. Of course, that was when they had Boromir with them, and leaves kind of a lame group to go to Minas Tirith - Legolas, Merry and Pippin only.
To be honest, I don’t see any way in which this ends well. As Chronos points out, Frodo left the Fellowship because of the example of Boromir. Had he seen the most vulnerable member of their group exert sufficient self-discipline to voluntarily remove himself from the company rather than stay to be seduced by the Ring, he would have been far less motivated to split off and head to Mordor on his own.
Moreover, it’s entirely possible that Frodo and Sam would have been seized by Saruman’s Uruk Hai along with Merry and Pippin. Without Boromir’s doughty fighting, the Three Hunters (Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas) might have been killed - Boromir took out a lot of Uruks before he went down.
So, best case, Elendil’s Heir’s scenario, in which everything goes pretty much the same except that Denethor is somewhat less hostile (he’s not going to be a happy camper at best, with Boromir still in Lothlorien, but he shouldn’t be suicidal). Worst case is that everyone but the hobbits is killed, and Sauron and Saruman duke it out over the Ring (at which point the hobbits are killed too).
I utterly detest this expression, but in Tolkien’s world, everything really does happen for a reason.
I agree with the others - it would have been a game-changer. Boromir in a way is like the Judas of the LOTR. I have never understood why Judas is so hated; after all, if Jesus is God, and God is omniscient, he not only knew Judas would betray him, but expected him to and needed him to. Otherwise Christians would not have the Savior that died for his sins.
Boromir is like that…he needed to commit his act of treason to drive home to Frodo how serious this all was. Up until now Frodo believed he would have his friends around him. He certainly didn’t believe it would be a walk in the park, not after Gandalf’s fate, but it needed to be shown to him that he had to carry the burden himself.
(And then Fate, or the Gods, blessed him with one faithful person to share the load.)
I agree with Chronos and Oy, without Aragorn’s riding of the paths of the dead, both Gondor and untimately Rohan would have fallen to Sauron forces. It’s clear from the text that Aragorn felt he could not abandon Frodo. The question is, could he have guided Frodo into Mordor in Smeagol’s place? Aragorn probably does know of Cirith Ungol, as he walked in sight of Minas Morgul and the boundaries of Mordor when hunting for Gollum, but may not see it as a viable route. Not even Gandalf had a plan for actually entering Mordor. And even if they do make it in, without Aragorn’s march to the black gates, orcs are camped all across Gorgaroth, blocking the approach to Mount Doom.
Exactly.
Elrond specifically says “on those who go with the ring-bearer, no oath or charge is laid”. Frodo’s companions did not have to follow him into Mordor, hence the debate at Path Galen. Boromir travelled with the fellowship because they were heading the same way, he always planned to leave the fellowship, and was completely open about this.
That isn’t consistent with Denethor’s grief over Boromir’s death. In the book, Denethor is not a pawn or servant of Sauron, he simply falls into despair.
The elves had little contact with men. In the book they elves of Lorien and Mirkwood defend their territory, but play no part in the battles in Rohan, Gondor and Dale.
I don’t believe there is any action Boromir could have taken that, at least in his mind, would not have been betraying someone. Had he followed the Fellowship to Mordor to destroy the ring, Gondor may well have been destroyed, and he would have failed in his duty as heir to the Stewardship. Had he taken Aragorn to Gondor, as he could have been bound to do due to Aragorn’s birthright as king, he would have betrayed his father.
As it is, he attempted to do right by his father and country by betraying his friends and his rightful King. To me, it’s clear that Boromir snapped under the weight of competing obligations. Had he not, and the ring not have gone into hiding, Sauron would almost certainly have reclaimed it, and with it Lordship of Middle Earth.
Recall that Faramir had the dream (telex from providence) to go to Rivendell but Denethor forbade it–then Boromir had the dream (telex from providence) and went. (a) You can’t thwart providence (or a post-modern self-aware author acting as providence); and (b) providence would have spared Boromir the temptation 'cause he couldn’t take it, but when he had to go because Denethor wouldn’t let Faramir do it, he got the chance to atone at the end. Frodo couldn’t resist at the cusp either.
That “otherwise” isn’t really justified - if you’re dealing with God then you have to admit that, absent Judas’s betrayal, the matter would have been managed some other way. But there’s a parallel, for all that: Boromir didn’t attempt to seize the Ring in order to see to it that Frodo went off to Mordor, and Merry and Pippin to Fangorn, and Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas to Edoras, and himself redeemed to where the wicked cease from troubling, but only because he thought the Ring belonged in his hands. Similarly Judas didn’t betray Jesus to achieve Jesus’ ends, but his own. That’s what attracts the opprobrium. Had Judas said “Master, I understand what must happen; I will arrange it, if you wish,” it would have been a very different story - for him, at least.
If Boromir didn’t try to seize the Ring then it seems that all the Fellowship save Frodo get jumped by a hundred Orcs; it was only when Boromir returned to camp and half-explained what had happened that everyone ran off in different directions, leaving Merry and Pippin alone to blunder into them.
No it isn’t. Elrond specifically says that no one is bound to accompany all the way to Mt. Doom, and Boromir was always planning to go to Gondor anyway.