Boy did I screw this up... (seeking dog advice again)

I’ll skip the part about why I thought this was a good idea. The upshot is that I currently have two dogs in my apartment who aren’t getting along. :smack: :smack: First dog is Zoe, a ~1 yr old 52-lb female Collie mix. The other, tentatively named Simon, is a male Jack-Russel mix, 18lb. Vet says he’s probably about 2 years old.

They’ve stopped barking at each other, but they are chasing each other around, each trying to assert dominance. Simon would occasionally succeed and Zoe rolls on her back. Simon then gets on top of Zoe and starts humping. :eek: No actual penetration, just the motion. Zoe promptly decides she doesn’t like it, and chases Simon off. This went on for a while until I barricaded Simon into the kitchen.

If they can’t work it out I’ll have to return Simon to the shelter (or more likely, a better organization). He’d still be better off than if I hadn’t gotten him, so perhaps I shouldn’t feel too horrible. But if there’s anything I can do to help them get along, I’m all ears.

Is he fixed?

Here are some links about this issue that I posted in the one vs two thread.

http://www.paw-rescue.org/PAW/PETTI...ltiple_Dog.html


http://www.gurney.co.uk/pads/twodogs.htm
http://www.wonderpuppy.net/canwehelp/seconddog.htm

IMHO:
My sense is that you’re just going to have to put up with it for a while. When I was growing up, we got a younger dog (male) in addition to our older dog (female). They drove us NUTS with the constant testing/playing/dominance stuff.

Especially when you don’t have much space to work with, maybe you’ll have to work on structure - time limiting the interactions, taking them out of “home” territory to play (so it’s not all about who’s top dog at home), and getting them each as much exercise as possible. (The humping is dominance, too, as you probably know.) Not only that, but you should still try to spend time with each of them individually, especially the new one, so that they’re bonded to you primarily, and not each other.

It’s going to take time and a lot of work for you…

He got fixed today.

For that reason I didn’t let them fight it out too long. Well, I hope it wasn’t too long.

Messed up that first link:

http://www.paw-rescue.org/PAW/PETTIPS/DogTip_Multiple_Dog.html

The only alpha male in the house who should be asserting dominance is you. You are the leader of the pack and have to tell them when their behavior (fighting over dominance) is not acceptable. They are looking to you to assert dominance. If you don’t, they will.

Check out the “dog whisperer” Cesar Milan. The guy’s a dog genius. He’s got a show on National Geographic, I think, and is worth a look.

Good luck. I love the Jack Russells, but they can be a handful.

I second Cesar Milan. He knows how the dogs mind works. I think his show is on Animal Planet, usually 7-8ish time frame.

You should be in control of the dogs. I think possibly a choke collar on with a leash and anytime any humping comes along, give him a good tee hee jerk to correct this problem and a verbal command, like " No (Name.)"

If you are consistant, then all you should need is the command.

This option may work on husbands as well. :cool:

OK… The above links seem to suggest that I should let the dogs fight it out and establish the pecking order, but I guess that’s not good advice? Should I still attempt to reinforce a particular order (one dog over the other) and if so, how do I decide which?

I have Cesar Milan’s DVD, but my cable plan doesn’t include National Geographic.

p.s. For what it’s worth, here’s the little guy:

Well, the pictures demonstrate why you thought it would be a good idea. He’s adorable! I don’t really have anything to add, I just hope it works out for you.

It is good advice to let them sort it out – each time you break it up, you “reset” them and they just have to figure it out again. I’ve had countless dogs go through this and they’ll figure it out after awhile if you let them. As long as they aren’t hurting each other, they’ll be fine.

As for you being the “alpha” dog and such – it doesn’t matter in their situation with each other. Yes, it’s important to establish yourself as the alpha, but they’ll still need to decide on a pecking order below you. It’s natural and nothing to be concerned about as long as they aren’t hurting each other, hurting you, destroying the house, or anything else of an important nature.

Sounds scary, looks scary, is damn annoying at times – otherwise, it’s not a big deal.

And, please, for the love of God, do not put a fricking choke collar on him. Jack Russels are prone to tracheal collapse and don’t need anything digging into their throat.

Good luck. He might not be the dog for you if they haven’t settled down in a couple of months. But with a little patience, I think it’ll turn out fine for you. Don’t be too upset if it takes them a little while to get things straight.

It is good advice to let them sort it out – each time you break it up, you “reset” them and they just have to figure it out again. I’ve had countless dogs go through this and they’ll figure it out after awhile if you let them. As long as they aren’t hurting each other, they’ll be fine.

As for you being the “alpha” dog and such – it doesn’t matter in their situation with each other. Yes, it’s important to establish yourself as the alpha, but they’ll still need to decide on a pecking order below you. It’s natural and nothing to be concerned about as long as they aren’t hurting each other, hurting you, destroying the house, or anything else of an important nature.

Sounds scary, looks scary, is damn annoying at times – otherwise, it’s not a big deal.

And, please, for the love of God, do not put a fricking choke collar on him. Jack Russels are prone to tracheal collapse and don’t need anything digging into their throat.

Good luck. He might not be the dog for you if they haven’t settled down in a couple of months. But with a little patience, I think it’ll turn out fine for you. Don’t be too upset if it takes them a little while to get things straight.

Ew. Now my posts have to fight over dominance.

If the dogs are fairly young (< 5 yrs) you can expect some rough play.

GF initially thought our dogs were fighting when they were just playing.

If thier hair is not up and they are not drawing blood, it is play. Usually they go for the ears when playing. If they were fighting, they’d be going for the throat.

It is partly about establishing dominance, and partly just having fun with each other. Once the dominance is firmly established, they may actually get a little rougher. If the dominant dog is secure, they can allow the submissive dog to get away with more. Ours would even allow/encourage the submissive dog to whup up on him for part of the time to keep her interested in playing.

Hee hee!

I agree with chatelaine. All dogs in a group will figure out where they belong. As for being “alpha”, there’s a lot of conflicting info on this. I don’t think you have to be violent, or impose the “rollover” thing. I’ve watched our dog with other dogs, and it seems to be about little stuff - who gets to be in charge of high value toys/locations/privileges. That’s why I liked that one article about subtly reinforcing the order that seems to be emerging. You eat first, then feed the dominant dog, then the other dog. You don’t go to them to give them attention - you call them to you. If the dominant dog comes to you for attention while you’re petting the other, you switch. No one is allowed on the furniture except you, etc.

No doubt you already know all this!

I wouldn’t say I let my dogs “fight it out,” but I did let them establish their pecking order without much interference from me. My attitude was that I would let them figure out their dominance, but I wouldn’t let it go too far and allow one to get hurt. I’d let them do their thing but would call off any interaction when I thought it had passed dominance and was into fighthing (if the one submitted or yelped and the aggressor didn’t back off).

I haven’t had to interfere with most of my dogs. When my dogs met my mother’s dog, I did have to call it off the first few times since her dog crossed the line and wouldn’t back off when the other submitted. I just yelled “knock it off” in my best “don’t mess with me–for I am the alpha bitch” voice (it helped that this dog already knew me and knew I was a force to be reckoned with). She learned the boundaries pretty quickly, but I never really trusted her alone with other dogs. She just hadn’t learned the dog rules of when to stop aggressing.

Also, I won’t allow one dog to bully the other out of food or attention from me. What they do between themselve is their business (as long as one doesn’t get hurt), but feedings and attention are my call (as alpha bitch and all).

I’m pretty much inclined to let dogs work it out themselves, unless it looks like there is a lot real aggression happening (ie. someone is getting hurt). I’m inclined to believe that although there is a dog “pack order”, it’s much more fluid, and nowhere near as hierarchical as people believe.

Just from what you’re written it sounds to me as if your dogs are actually doing pretty well together … the running and barking sounds more like a game than anything.

You didn’t say how long you’re had the two dogs, but it can take a few weeks for new dogs to get the hang of being together, so you probably need a bit more time and some ear plugs.

JRs are a lot of dog in a little package, but getting him fixed will probably decrease the humping … but humping in dogs isn’t necessarily about sex, it’s also a sign of dominance.

But as everybody has said, what is important is that you have enough authority to call a halt to things if you need to.

A trainer I worked with taught me about going around with a pocket full of treats. When I was walking my dogs (I had six at the time), I used to call them too me and everybody got a treat, sitting quietly and waiting their turn. I’d call them if they were playing or just running around … the trick was to get them to pay attention and respond to me, no matter how interested they were in whatever else was going on.

After they’d sit quietly together, I’d get them to drop and wait for a treat. It only took a couple of minutes, but I’d do it several times per walk. It gets the dogs listening to you … so that if you think things are getting rough you can halt things without having to get physical.

The disruption of introducing a new dog is hard work, but give it a little time and they’ll settle down together and probably enjoy the company. Dogs are social critters and generally like the company of one of their own kind.

And make sure they both get lots of exercise … JRs are energiser bunnies in dog suits! A tired puppy is a good puppy. :slight_smile:

They’re mostly going for the genitals at this point. :smack: Well, Simon is. I think Zoe is going for the ears but being much larger, she ends up with Simons’s whole head in her mouth. (No, she doesn’t bite down.) Also a lot of wrestling as they each try to put their paws on the other. I guess this is mostly harmless playing.

Still, I think I’ll keep them separated until Simon’s fully recovered from getting neutered.

By the way, why does this dog still have a big scrotum hanging down? I thought they remove the thing completely. (I’ve never had a male dog before.)

I wouldn’t worry about their tussling too much. If there’s no blood being drawn, or shrieks of pain, then they’re just playing. Sometimes, my dogs growl and bark so viciously while wrestling I think they’re going to kill each other, but it really is just play. As long as they’re not hurting one another, let it go. Dogs know how to draw the line.

When we got a second dog, my older dog rejected the new puppy in no uncertain terms. She was so rough with her, that we kept them seperated for a long while-- she would actually hurt the pup making her scream in pain and fear. It took about two months before things calmed down to the point where we could let them wrestle without worrying the older dog would hurt the pup.

Give them time. It may take a while, but they’ll sort out their differences.

A lot of dog play looks pretty rough to humans. I had my dog Jasper over to visit my BIL’s dog Lucky. They were doing what were to me obvious dog wrestling moves – jaw wrestling, Lucky turning upside down while Jasper jumped on him, and both of them darting around and coming back and jumping on each other, etc. My BIL kept asking me “Are they ok? Aren’t they fighting?” I had to keep reassuring him that yes, they were ok, and no, they weren’t fighting. They were just playing rough and having a good time.

I’ve broken up enough dog fights and moderately serious dog disagreements to know the difference. Sometimes it just takes a little experience.

I just wanted to report that I let the two dogs fight it out tonight, and they seem to be getting along now. Either that or they tired each other, which is good enough for me. Simon, the 18-lb Jack-Russel mix, is the clear winner. :eek: (Zoe is 52 lb.) Thanks everyone for the advice.