A month or so ago we adopted a little Yorkie, Harley(on the right), who is now about 3 months old. My girlfriend has her Shih Tzu’s here often, one is 3 years the other about 10 months. Harley gets along well with the older Shih Tzu but “plays” h.a.r.d. with the younger Shih Tzu. We’ve been correcting the behavior but it only seems to slow them down temporarily.
Last night we brought home our second baby, Foster. He’s 8 weeks old and adorable as ever, but now Harley and the younger Shih Tzu want to play hard with him too. They chase and tumble and bite (and occasionally yelp). No one has gotten hurt but I fret that if I allow this behavior to continue, they will hurt each other or become aggressive dogs.
How much of this is normal “puppy play” and how much of it is aggressive behavior that needs to be corrected?
We’ve not had a puppy in the house in forever. We adopted our last dog when he was a year old so we missed the whole puppy thing.
it’s very normal behavior & an imprtant part of the socialization process they would learn in a pack in the wild. the older pup(s) or dog(s) teach the younger what’s acceptable and not. younger pups get a pass for transgressions older ones would get a nip for. dogs have their own ‘etiquette,’ so it’s best not to intervene unless the occasional yelp becomes real cries of pain or fear. you’ll be able to tell the difference.
ii have 6 dogs now, & had dogs all my life. they’ll be fine.
Actually, by allowing this normal play to happen, you are helping to ensure normal socialization. The bite/yelp helps the dog recognize how far play can go. Dogs without litter mates to learn this from often have problems relating to other dogs.
Add me to the “no blood, no foul” pile. They are doing exactly what they should be doing at that age. Enjoy it! it only lasts a little while and then they turn into couch potatoes.
(slight hijack) My dog and I roll around and play and he “play bites”. I’ve always wondered how dogs know how hard to bite without hurting or drawing blood…
I’ve had a couple of Australian Shepherd puppies in my life. When they’re young, they’re just ALLIGATORS. The only thing that worked for my first Aussie pup was to YIPE real sharply and stop playing when she’d play too rough. That became her cue to ease up and learn bite inhibition.
The aggression you should stop is any sort of aggression towards humans. To other dogs, I agree that they’re generally the best arbiters themselves, when puppies are concerned. As long as the dogs aren’t lunging at other dogs when you take them for a walk, and as long as everyone’s tails are high and ears are up, they’re just having a good time.
Do remember to get everyone neutered/spayed on time, though. A bitch in heat can throw everyone from happy happy fun time to serious dominance plays before you realize what’s happening.
All my life I’ve regretted how I treated our new puppy when I was about 4 years old. She’d nip at me and if she got me real hard, I’d just grab her muzzle and bite her nose. Not real hard, but I was annoyed and let her know it. Now that I think of it, maybe I was just teaching her the same way she would have learned with her own bunkmates had she stayed in the litter. She did grow up to be a wonderful member of our family, though. I’m reading vindication here. Anyone choosing to burst my newly formed bubble is invited to write their post on a sheet of Charmin. xo, C.
Does the bolded line apply when the puppy is being a pest? She (about 2 months old) shoves him (almost three years old) away from the water bowl when he’s drinking, instead of drinking from the other bowl. She tries to pry his mouth open to take things from him. She climbs into his crate with him. This last one causes him to growl at her.
Pretty soon, she’ll be bigger than he is, and I was hoping he’d establish himself before then, but he’s just going along with her taking everything for herself. I’ve been stepping in and stopping her. Bad idea?
Yes, bad idea. She’s attempting to teach him for you! She’s teaching him that she (and, in turn, you) are his boss and he doesn’t get to have anything - toys, food, the nice place to sleep - unless she (and you) say he can. It’s nice when pups can get this lesson in Dog, from dogs. It’s a lot harder to teach it to them as humans.
Let her be his teacher. Things don’t have to be “fair” by human standards for them to be perfectly copacetic by dog standards.
Growling is perfectly fine, it’s part of how dogs communicate. As he gets older and tries to test his boundaries (think: teenager!), he may even snap at her. It’s still okay. Dogs have thick skin, literally and figuratively. You don’t. Stepping in and stopping them is likely to get you and your thin wimpy skin bit by a nip intended for her thick furry hide, and that’s not good for anyone’s health.
I’m far more worried by dogs pulling on a leash or being aggressive to strange dogs or humans than I am by a little scuffling on the part of pack mates.
I think you misread my post. She’s the baby, and is pushing the two year old dog around. When the puppy got growled at for getting in his crate, I removed her from the situation, and didn’t scold the other dog, but I’ve been stopping the puppy from dominating the older dog. I’m okay with the warning growl. If anything, I was glad he put her in her place.
If you did read it correctly, it’s really okay for a two month old to be teaching an adult the “rules of dog”? I know the oldest animal isn’t always the alpha, but isn’t she way too young to decide she’s the boss?
And yes, that changes things a bit. She might be a born Alpha, but that doesn’t mean she can stay that way. I still wouldn’t get involved in their thing - she may always be dominant over *him *- but I would watch her more closely around people, and make sure she stays subservient to them. Is she in obedience training? If not, she should be. While you’re there, talk with the trainer about safe ways to gently de-Alpha her. Don’t do Alpha rolls unless the instructor can show you how to do it safely. Ask about food training, as well. I’ll never have a dog that a little kid can’t take a nice juicy bone away from without so much as a growl in attitude. But do be careful and do seek training help - you don’t want to inadvertently antagonize her. You want her to think that your being boss is in her best interest, not because you’re a threat.
It may also be much ado about nothing, in the long run. Many dogs let puppies run all over them (literally!), but that warning growl was, as you say, a really good sign that she’s getting out of “puppy” status and he’s going to teach her some manners. That’d be a good thing.
Actually, don’t do alpha rolls AT ALL. I believe that’s been pretty much debunked as an effective training strategy.
Older dogs are pretty patient with puppies. They WILL set boundaries eventually, and the puppy may or may not challenge those boundaries.
When we got our Jasper (now 4 yo), he was pretty subservient to our Bouncer (now 11). As Jasper grew up, that dynamic changed, and Jasper decided HE wanted to be top dog. That’s not “fair” in human terms, but you really do have to let the dogs sort it out.
Jasper basically stopped rolling over and taking correction from Bouncer after a while. There were a couple of scraps where Jasper decided to try to enforce his dominance over Bouncer. But all that’s pretty much sorted out now. And Jasper is NOT dominant over us. He’s actually a fairly soft dog. But Bouncer is a VERY soft dog, not to mention The Sweetest Dog in the World, so he didn’t fuss too much.
size has little to do w/ dominance in a domesticated “pack.” age comes into play, but personality and the group dynamic are more important. my 15 y/o f chihuahua puts the fear of god into my 6 y/o f 45 lb mixed breed, who at another house w/ another group of dogs absolutely ruled the back yard. i have a frail 20 y/o m chihuahua whose patience is sorely tested by my exuberant 3 y/o f corgi mix. if the corgi ties to muscle in on him at the feed bowl, one of the other females will give her a nip or growl. my other corgi cross will position herself between the chihuahua at the bowl and the boisterous corgi so the old guy can eat his fill and totter away unmolested. dogs form complex, fascinating relationships with each other, and we can learn much by observation. when we impose our own arbitrary rules upon them (w/ exceptions made for obedience and safety training) we upset their own hierarchy and confuse them
that said, an abused or extremely submissive dog can become the “designated victim” to the point where a responsible owner should intervene. but generally speaking, it is unwise to try to change the order of dominance amongst the dogs, i.e., elevate the beta dog to alpha status, demote the alpha. they won’t understand, become confused, and undesirable behavior patterns can emerge. in other words, the dogs know best how to do the dog thang! leave it to the experts!
Thanks for all the help, everyone. I assumed the older dog would be alpha, partly because he’s taken that role in his other interactions with dogs. Of course, none of those dogs were females or puppies, so I’ll have to wait and see what happens. I’ll leave them alone from now on, unless someone is getting hurt.
Maybe he is just being patient as **Archergal ** said. I also figured he’d probably be safer as the alpha since the puppy will probably end up twice his size (she’s a mixed breed, so I’m not sure exactly how big she’ll be). I’m not exactly sure *why * I thought this though.
The puppy will be going to formal training once she finishes up her shots. Right now we’re doing basic things like NILIF, commands, trading objects etc. She hasn’t bitten anyone, not counting the usual puppy nips, or guarded things from us but we’ll keep an eye out for her trying to dominate people.
So it does.
