We've Balkanized our house: Dog trouble

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
1

We have five dogs, two are neutered males. Jack is a 16yo large collie and Baxter is a 2yo AmStaff. The other three are females.

We got Bax as a puppy. Jack took charge of him and exerted he was in charge in non-violent but bossy ways – they were friends, though Jack got a bit rough with him occasionally.

A few months ago the two had a horrible fight in the backyard. Jack was bothering Baxter and Bax went after him. They both inflicted minor wounds on one another, nothing awful though it looked and sounded like a death match. But this was the beginning of the situation. (The girls are not involved at all).

After a few episodes of fighting we’ve not allowed the boys unsupervised yard time together and have had a moderate security system to keep them apart.

We were enjoying almost a month’s peace then the boys had a bad fight last night – in the house (first house fight, so high security measures weren’t in effect). Jack just has a nip on the ear, but it looked and sounded as if they were killing each other. Now they are both on a leash inside their own house areas and the yard is now maximum security.

Bax might be sensing that Jack is really old and there’s a leadership position coming up. Both are otherwise loving, silly, happy dogs with other dogs and all people. They just decided one day to hate each other.

The fact is that Jack is an extraordinarily old collie. He’s in good shape, but can’t live forever – so that will eventually solve the issue (I so hate thinking about this).

The good news: Bax and his sister Tally are going to a three-week board and train facility next month. They both completed kindergarten and first grade, but are in need of some advanced training. We will be gone for two weeks in June and were terrified about leaving our petsitter in the fighting situation. The boarding place is huge, gorgeous and fun, it’s like a dog spa with classes.

So, four more weeks of being fulltime dog prison guards. This is so sad, sucky and stressful. Sigh

2

Yeah, it’s very stressful having to monitor things constantly. See my story about my pack ganging up on Frank. It ended with an amputation and a $4000 vet bill. I have no idea who did what to tart it, but they were going to finish it. Frank’s out of the hospital and now I’m monitoring pretty much all combined time for any longer than it takes to go to the bathroom. I work from home most days, and on the days I go into the office I have Frank in a large outdoor run (about 30’ X 30’). For the first few weeks I was nauseous most of the time, just with worry.

I hope the extra training resolves the issue. I haven’t ruled out giving Frank back to his rescue, but things have calmed down and it’s just a new routine.

StG

3

I fostered 2 unrelated hounds at one time, They hated each other immediately. Anything would set them off. I did everything I could to get them to get along. When I had to rush one of them to the vet, bleeding badly, I quit right then. I called someone at the shelter to pick up the bad guy. But it turns out now they have forever families they are the sweetest mutts ever. They just can’t be around other dogs.
There is hope.

4

I re-read your posts, OMG. You more than know how stressful this is. I’m glad Frank made it.

I made the mistake of wading into last night’s fracas and Jack accidentally bit me on the arm, I’m sure he thought it was Baxter. It’s a shame, they had such a cute puppy-old dog relationship for a long time.

5

Thx, Beck. That must have been horrible, I’m glad they found good homes.

We’re hoping doggie boot camp will get Bax back on track. If it doesn’t we’ll just keep Jack safe til he goes to Heaven.

I’ve always had three dogs or more and while there were spats here and there it was over and resolved quickly. It helps to hear other’s stories, I’ve been feeling like a terrible dog mama.

6

I have hope for your dogs, going to doggy training course sounds like it may do it. I have no dog training abilities. I usually go on luck and love. If the 2 I was dealing had been my dogs I would’ve done just what you’re doing. Good luck.

7

Our four-year-old Flat-coated Retriever Cross (Simon), went after our Norfolk Terrier-Poodle cross (Opie), about 4 years ago. It was awful - the vet bill was somewhere around $4000 dollars, and I will never forget driving Opie to the vet just praying that he would hold on long enough. We were very lucky, 5 stitches to the back of his neck and 8 to the front, missed the jugular and the spinal cord, but it was very, very close.

My daughter got to see Opie being shaken like a rag dog and watching him limp across the yard to try and make it to me broke my heart.

After, it was so hard to see Simon actually “missing” Opie, he laid down with his head in Opie’s crate, and tried hard to comfort us when we were waiting to hear back if Opie would make it. I will never know what set Simon off, we managed to re-home him with someone as an “only dog”, and their promise to work with a trainer. Weirdly, Opie is just “one of those” dogs, that seems to get picked on a lot.

8

I’m sorry it happened, and glad that you’re willing and able to take steps to keep them both safe and happy. I’m not entirely sure, from your description, that the problem is necessarily any more serious than a readjustment of pack order. Perhaps ask the trainer for their assessment, since he’ll be spending time with Baxter. I’m basing this on where the injuries are (ears, for example). On the flip side, it may be that Baxter cannot live with male dogs moving forward, but would be ok playing with them in an neutral location.

How is your arm today?

9

We’re hoping it can be worked out. This fight was so random - Jack squealed when he got off the couch (arthritis) and Baxter jumped him. Jack has pretty much ceded his pack leader position, but Bax didn’t get the memo.

We’ll keep Bax the only boy when Jack passes on, it will be less stressful. I do think it’s (maybe) promising that wounds have been ears and face pokes; it looks and sounds as if they’re murdering one another. We’re especially sensitive to getting Baxter advanced training because he’s an AmStaff/Pitt and we don’t want to be THOSE people with a shitty dog. He’s such a great dog except for this. His sisters adore him and he would cuddle us 24/7 if he could.

Arm is colorful and I’m keeping it clean. Thanks for asking.

10

Jenn - Ouch! Be very careful of the wound in your arm. Things can turn bad quickly.

I’ve had 3-6 dogs at any given time for the last 25 years or so. Usually at least 2 Dobes and often a German shepherd in the mix. All big dogs. Of course, people being what they are, when I posted my story on a horse message board I belong to, people jumped all over me for having more than one Dobe, more than one dog of each sex, etc. Apparently all those years I was sitting on a potential powder keg.

When I think about it, although mine was very traumatic, I don’t know how seriously they were trying to hurt Frank. He was very scraped up, but the leg was lost because of one deep wound that cut off blood flow. Nothing else even needed a drain. He was beat up, for sure, but there weren’t many bad wounds, just unlucky ones. Still, I won’t risk it. Managing them will just have to continue as a priority. The danger is getting complacent. Frank’s relearned how to go out the dog door, so I have to watch when he’s outside, or block him in.

StG

11

Wounds looking good but I know they can turn bad, and very quickly.

Yeah, I’m a casual poster on another board upon which I won’t post about dog trouble anymore. I did about six months ago and was dogpiled on along the same lines (having two pitbulls made me satanic, though it was Jack the Collie who started everything). It made me feel like a crappy person, so I don’t mention it there.

I wish the boys could understand and speak English for just five minutes. I’d get the lowdown on why this is happening and get it fixed. Stuff like this reminds me that no matter how our dogs seem like furry humans, they’re animals with animal instincts that we can’t fully understand. We joke that Jack calls Bax bad names under his breath to goad him.

Yup, complacency is tempting. We had gone an extended time without a fight then --boom! – Bax is on top of Jack.

12

I had an Akita for years, with a Rottie and a Shepherd. They occasionally had tussles, but fortunately it was never serious. Bites on ears from time to time, and best buddies the rest of the time. Our shepherd was the little girl (at 65 pounds) and determined to get her way in everything. She’d kind of ooze over to the others when they were looking at something else and try to take a bone or toy. Sometimes she’d get it and run, sometimes the other dog would bark or growl, and sometimes they’d decide to roll her. In the end, she always got all the bones. The three of them would make one of hell of racket, even just playing.

I’m cautiously optimistic that things will settle out for you Jenn.
ETA: Glad to hear that Frank is doing so well, StG

13

I am just getting over a bad dog bite on my hand. It was a stray, so it was real smart to go to the doctor. Luckily the dog had all his shots up to date. Around here that was almost surprising.
It hurt alot worse than I ever thought, but it’s healed up now. So good luck with that bite.

14

I agree with this, but that doesn’t necessarily make it less dangerous. Young male wolves take over a pack by killing the elder male, after all. Are your bitches fixed? If one of them is throwing scent it would explain an awful lot. Or perhaps another bitch in the neighborhood? The males can smell them a long way off, and they get into this weird instinctual twilight when it happens. They do aggressive stuff and then look all confused like “Why did I do that?”

Another thing that may help is to strongly impose your own dominance if another fight should occur. (Which hopefully it won’t.) Stomp in, make tons of noise at your lowest possible voice register. Separate them with body language instead of by grabbing them. Walk in between them and get up on them, backing them off. Bax may fight less hard when he figures out that it’s only second place he’s fighting for.

Also, any changes in your feeding spot, schedule, or routine? Are they eating twice a day? Dogs get hangry too.

15

Yeah, everybody is fixed. We do have new neighbors with a little yappy dog they let run free (idiots!) This dog does rile Bax up at our fence so we try to avoid having our dogs out at the same time (we have a huge, securely fenced backyard). The fights were happening before Yappy moved in.

For a while my presence kept Bax away from Jack. The wife is retired and at home with them while I’m at work, which is when the fights were happening. When I was home I’d keep Jack close to me and it wasn’t a problem (we joke it’s like daddy was home – I’m also physically big). If Bax seemed to be stepping to Jack I’d intimidate him and it was quashed without violence. The latest fight, when Jack was right at my feet, tells me this has probably stopped working.

Yes, the pack have, and have always had, segregated eating areas. Same goes for certain toys to discourage aggressive guarding. I can’t think of any changes that happened when the fights started.

My guess is that Bax sensed Jack was weakening with age and is making a bid for pack leader. To us it’s clear that he’s succeeded, but he won’t stop. Segregation it is for four weeks until he and his sister go to board and train for three weeks.

16

You said that Jack yelped when he jumped down. I suspect that it was that wounded animal noise that set Baxter off.

In some ways, I think it’s unfortunate that Baxter & Tully are heading off to boarding school. When they come back they’ll have to reestablish pack-positions. Is the training going to address aggression? Is there anywhere close to home they can go instead?

17

Above and beyond the fighting situation, Bax and Tally definitely need more training. Tal has developed a fear response to strangers that we haven’t been able to fix on our own. We were worried sick about leaving the dogs with a sitter when were on vacation for 12+ days in June, as we couldn’t ask the sitter to break up brawls (and, god forbid, get hurt).

And it didn’t seem fair to board Jack, given his age and achey old body.

The board and train works perfectly: it covers the time we’ll be gone and five days on either end. We won’t worry the sitter is lying dead between Bax and Jack. This place is dog heaven – pools, playgrounds, obstacle courses, personal hotel rooms, and uber-pro trainers. If something happens, like a fight, the staff won’t freak out.

But yes, I will miss them terribly. I get a little misty thinking about them not being at home.