Yes: it* is* rape culture, blaming the victim, and sexist.
**It is never the victims fault for rape. **It is the rapist’s fault. 100%. Solely. Only.
"Hey Shodan took the wrong freeway exit in that fancy Ferrari, and got car jacked and robbed- it’s his fault for driving such a fancy car and taking that exit. "
No, it is the fault of the car-jackers and robbers.
Those bicyclists killed in ISISville? 100% the fault of the murderers. Still doesn’t mean the bicyclists made the wisest choice. And that’s not murder culture. Nor is it misogyny or bike bigotry.
No-It’s bad math…unless 100% means something different to you than it does to the rest of us.
You realize that fault and stupid decisions aren’t the same concept? C’mon now. But if you are convinced it’s so-called bad math then explain the error.
I already did. You can rename the blame however you want, but 100% is 100%.
What if Shodan, dressed in expensive clothing and wearing a $50,000 wristwatch, drove his Ferrari to a dive bar where he left it parked out front in plain view, went inside and started flashing a wad of cash and buying everyone drinks, got stumbling blind drunk, and took a wrong turn heading for the bathroom and wound up outside in an alley, where some of the bar’s patrons followed and began to beat and rob him and take his wallet, his watch and his car.
Do you still claim he bears zero responsibility for what happened to him?
Sorry, but this is utter bullshit!
It goes without saying that rape is the rapist’s fault. This is why we have laws and prison sentences for rape but we don’t also charge and jail the victim.
But the idea a woman, or anyone for that matter, is perfectly entitled to blunder obliviously and unconcernedly though life, giving no thought whatsoever to the prospect of harm or danger in whatever activity she or they are undertaking, and then be considered totally and utterly free of responsibility should that dangerous situation bear fruit, is lunacy. And whichever women are foolish enough to buy into it are going to be setting themselves up for some very unpleasant experiences indeed.
This idiotic idea began when in the early phase of the women’s movement women began to talk about how they frequently felt responsible for the sexual abuse they encountered as children or on dates gone awry, etc., and so people began to tell them that they were not at fault for what happened and the blame lay squarely with whomever it was that had abused them.
This was 100% correct, because as children they had no recourse should an adult begin to abuse them, and they had no way out if the formerly charming guy they were on a date with were to suddenly decide to overpower and rape them. They were 100% innocent in such situations because they were had no choice in finding themselves trapped in the circumstances that facilitated their abuse.
So far, so good.
But then, liberals being liberals and believing that no good thing can ever go to far, began promoting the ridiculous idea that no woman is ever responsible for what happens to her, no matter how foolishly or unadvisedly or obliviously they undertook behavior that ultimately led to their being raped.
This is patently ridiculous on its very face. Life is full of situations that call for precautionary measures. A person is foolish indeed and he undoubtedly bears responsibility should he decide to jump off a cliff into a pool of water without first making sure its deep enough not to break his neck. And Shodan would be foolish indeed to behave as I described at the beginning of this post (though I can’t begin to imagine him behaving that way in real life).
And there is no feasible reason whatsoever that women should be entitled to ignore basic precautionary laws of life and throw caution to the wind, letting whatever happens happen, and bearing zero responsibility should whatever happens turn out to be bad.
Such a notion is so unbelievably stupid and ridiculous that I have a hard time imagining anyone would dare float it to begin with, let alone adopt, internalize it and passionately defend it.
So yes, if a child gets into a car with strangers and something bad happens, yes it’s partially their responsibility that it happened. They willingly disobeyed their parents and put themselves at risk of harm, and therefore they deserve a good scolding about it, including being told the fact that they put themselves at risk of harm.
So no, women aren’t some special magical creatures who get permission to blunder through life as whim dictates, completely oblivious to and unconcerned about the prospect that what they’re doing might put them at risk of harm. They need to use the same common sense and take the same precautionary measures that the rest of us do, and if they don’t and it turns out bad, they are probably going to blame themselves as well as come in for admonition from family and friends about having behaved so foolishly. And it is right and proper that they do. And you know why? Because it may well keep them from having a recurrence and it might even save their lives. For some reason I feel the need to say this is a good thing!
Oh? Well why don’t you make your argument explicit? Because this shit:
…Sounds exactly like what I’m responding to, and, coincidentally, exactly like what we’re talking about in this thread. You tell your children not to take rides from strangers, ergo it’s perfectly common sense to mansplain a bunch of basic safety precautions that everyone knows about to adult women, which often has the unfortunate side effect of it feeling like they had it coming if they don’t heed that advice.
Of course you don’t get into a stranger’s car; what did you think would happen? Of course you don’t get drunk at a frat party, what did you think would happen? Of course you don’t go running in the dark, what did you think would happen?
These statement happen again and again and again, more or less regardless of the situation. They act like women don’t know that there’s an inherently risk of doing… basically anything. Trust me, women know. You’re not offering any new information. What you are doing, whether you realize it or not, is infantilizing women and opening them up to get blamed for their rape. This shit ain’t helpful. It’s just obnoxious. You teach “common-sense precautions” to children.
Starving Rapist:
“I love rape!
Rape is so much fun!”
People take all sorts of precautions every day to keep themselves safe SA. We look both ways before crossing the street, we lock our doors at night, we wash our fruit and veggies to remove possible contaminants and we immunise our kids to prevent nasty infections.
But now you’re asking women to take EXTRA precautions?
Scenario: two teenagers going out to a party. Both get dressed-up so they look nice (because that’s what teenagers do). Both might drink some booze/take drugs (because that’s what teenagers do). Both might dance along to some doof/techno or whatever the current craze is (because that’s what teenagers do).
Should all female party-goers leave at say 11pm? At what point of the evening are women putting themselves at risk for being sexually assaulted? Are you suggesting that women never attend parties because to do so is ‘putting themselves in harm way’?
Can you possibly see how this argument is fundamentally flawed?
SA, you are missing this point. It’s not that we don’t know what’s safe or prudent. Of course we do. I know, my daughters know. My sisters know, every woman knows. The places where creeps are lurking trying to cop a feel or catcall is an ordinary place. A party, the Wal-Mart, the gas station or a ballgame. Places where anybody may congregate. I know a woman who had to stop going to her church because men wouldn’t quit hitting on her. Thats where the problem lies, it could be anywhere. It could be your Mom, your sister your child and they could be totally minding their business and boom, there it is, some creep slinging shit. The woman would be innocent,. Every. Time.
Apparently so. I actually had a girl I was seeing once ask me to rape her. I was young then and naive about such forms of, horseplay.
When I asked, “How can I rape you?”, the disappointment on her face was palpable. And though the relationship lasted a couple months more I could tell she knew I wasn’t the right guy for her.
My conservative proclivities have actually cost me quite a bit of…how can I put this so as not to offend…“love making”… over the years, sad to say.
But, c’est la vie, we are what we are.
Yeah, buddy, you are.
QFT.
And just to reiterate, yeah buddy, you are.
First of all, thanks for the civil tone of your post.
Secondly, you seem to be talking about completely different types of things that are being discussed when I hear “It’s never the woman’s fault.” Usually this is in relation to how she should feel if she gets raped after dressing in a short flirty dress, drinking to excess, and getting raped while unconscious or waking up in a strange man’s bed the next morning.
I certainly know it’s not a woman’s fault if she comes in for cat-calling, groping and so forth while innocently out going about her daily business.
For what it’s worth, you guys might like to know that as a result of these threads I find myself being more discreet in noticing attractive women while I’m out and about so as not to make them feel uncomfortable.
You’re starting to come off like Guinastasia-light, Kam. You might want to back off the “me too” when posting after Kimstu, Beck, etc. It’s not becoming.
Yer’ sometimes funny SA.
This is not one of those times.
In the scenario you mention, and sans provocative behavior intended to sexually arouse unattached male participants, I’d say they’re fine and that if something should happen it would not be their fault. And even if something were to happen their capability would be minimal. But change the location to a strip club and you’ll get a different answer.
Sorry. Just sayin…
Well, I’m off to check in on the Pit thread and then to bed. I’m sure there’ll be more tomorrow.
You guys remember New Deal Democrat? IIRC, he was never banned specifically for too many rule violations, it was just that we got sick of having a shitty racist around. Correct me if I’m wrong.