ISIS is not an example of murder culture?
Moderator Note
Let’s keep Giraffe out of this, please.
Moderator Note
I know that this is a hot button topic for many on this board, but let’s all keep in mind that this is ATMB, not the Pit. Please keep all responses ATMB appropriate and treat others with respect.
Do not insult others or make accusations of trolling outside of the Pit.
Do not attack other users in ATMB.
I have probably missed a few other similar offenses, but that should be enough for everyone to get the idea.
Is anyone still naive enough to think he isn’t getting off on this? Topic ban at the BARE MINIMUM. This is gross and I need a Silkwood shower.
Gosh, I am hating this thread like nobody’s business! The misogyny-men who are posting are making me sooooo stabby. I am hating you all with some real major hatred. Hope it reaches you, out there in the interwaves! You may be great people in real life but from what I read, you are … very bad people. Mwah! And I am out of here.
Agreed. Why is that crap allowed, over and over again, unmoderated?
Somehow the mods are not convinced.
This isn’t hard. Just tell Timmy to stop showing his weiner to his sister when we’re at the table.
You guys are acting like you are violating his rights or something. Just make him behave or kick him out.
Ya think?!
Way to go! Mods to the rescue! Just skip the obnoxious misogynist and focus on what is really important!
You know that thing where when you’re faced with a decision, you think of one option, and you make a two-column list, with all the pros of making the call on one side, and all the cons on the other?
Mods, could you maybe make a list like that for the idea of topic-banning Starving Artist? Because I can think of some very serious pros, but not a lot that would go in the con column.
Credit where credit is due (no snark intended).
The whole discussion about whether Ford made good decisions that night, as promulgated by Shodan, **octopus **et al, is just an elaborate exercise in evading the question at hand.
So, to stick with the well-rehearsed analogy, let’s say someone gets drunk, flashes cash and gets beaten up and robbed. Well in that case, the people who assaulted him should be let off scot free at sentencing because, let’s face it, they wouldn’t have been able to beat and rob him if he hadn’t made himself so available.
No hang on, that’s obvious nonsense. At sentencing, it doesn’t matter how or why the villains found their victim. The many important life lessons the poor sod might take about keeping himself safe are utterly irrelevant to the question at hand. That question being: does the robbers’ decision to rob him merit some kind of punishment?
So let’s unwind this analogy. The question at hand for these hearings is: should Kavanaugh be a Supreme Court justice? Ford’s accusations raise two sub-questions. Did he do what she accuses him of? And if so, should his decision to attempt to rape a drunk 15 year-old mean that he’s not worthy of being on the Supreme Court?
Let’s make the assumption for now that the bad things that she says happened did happen. It doesn’t matter for these hearings how good or bad her decision-making was that night. Her decision making is not what we’re interested in. What matters is Kavanaugh’s decision making. He was presented with a drunk 15 year-old. How she got there is immaterial to the matter at hand. He made a decision about how to proceed. If you want to talk about the quality of people’s decision-making, this is the decision you need to focus on. This decision is the whole point.
But of course, the whole point of making the conversation about Ford’s decision-making is to take the focus off of Kavanaugh’s. All the conversation about her choices minimises the attention on his. An assault is presented as a near-inevitability, an unfortunate event that just sort of happens to the woman who has crossed the acceptable boundaries of risk. “Can we really blame Kavanaugh, given all the bad decisions Ford had already made”, is the implication. In fact it’s worse - the implication is “given all the bad decisions Ford made, why are we talking about Kavanaugh at all?”.
That’s rape culture. Minimising men’s agency, accepting a high risk of rape or as just a natural environmental factor beyond anyone’s control, and ignoring considerations of men’s choices in favour of focusing on women’s. Even and especially when the only question that matters is what choices the man made.
Ford isn’t up for the Supreme Court. Kavanaugh is. Why are we talking about Ford’s judgement?
Very well said!
I notice you didn’t actually answer the question: If you child got into a car with a stranger and got hurt, AFTERWARD would you get mad at your child and blame them?
(I am not comparing children to women in this scenario)
And I don’t think anyone is saying to NOT give suggestions to your children, but do you really think you need to tell women those things? As actual women in this thread have said, they ALREADY know this information.
The problem, to me, seems to be saying these things AFTER a person is assaulted. What good comes from telling them “See? You shouldn’t have gone to that frat party with a short skirt on! It’s more than 0% your fault you got raped!”
Highly strange to me to tell someone that.
“Can we really blame Kavanaugh, given all the bad decisions Ford had already made”, is the implication. In fact it’s worse - the implication is “given all the bad decisions Ford made, why are we talking about Kavanaugh at all?”.
Post of the day.
I would highly discourage her from doing so BEFORE she went. If something happened, I wouldn’t blame her.
*edited to add: Besides, women get assaulted NO MATTER WHAT THEY ARE WEARING. And in every stage of drunkenness. And at every age. Should I warn my daughter never to go on a date, because she might get date-raped?
Believe me, this goes against a strong system I have of blaming people for doing stupid things. But threads on this board, and reading some links that were provided in other threads, I can see how blaming someone for something like this does no good, and only hurts someone more who is already a victim.
And especially in the case of a loved one or friend or someone else close to you, any little amount of thinking should tell everyone that if you blame a victim of sexual assault, then that person will probably NEVER tell you if something else happens. I don’t want my kids to not tell me things because they are afraid I will blame them.
And like I said, this goes against a lot of what I think, but I can understand it. And I don’t even have empathy to put myself in their situation. But I have good sense to see what would happen.
It’s not that hard.
I’d be interested in the answer to this as well. Perhaps TubaDiva could stop in and give us her thoughts?
I second the nomination for post of the day.
FWIW, my longer post above initially kicked off with a direct quote from the poster in question. Once I’d seen the remarks referred to above, I changed it so it had no reference to him in any way. Some people you just don’t want to interact with. (I realise that this post is in itself a reaction, which is plainly what he is looking for, but it’s the last one.)
But that’s not what is happening here.
This is more like you are interviewing someone for a job, and your daughter says 'when I was 15, I was drunk at a party and that guy nearly raped me."
At that point, the question before you is not whether or not she should have been at that long ago party: the question is whether or not to hire that guy. The issue isn’t why a particular girl was targeted: the issue is that he’s the sort of guy that targets drunk girls.
The only reason to, under those circumstances, ask about why the girl was at the party would be if you thought targeting drunk girls was acceptable.
Fair warning and a heads up. I’m just about done with rape apology. My tolerance for it in an official capacity is at an end from this point forward.
The only reason Kavanaugh’s behavior is minimized and Brown is challenged as to how come she did not take more forceful action later, IS a sociocultural acceptance of such conduct. So we are observing rape culture in that defense.
OTOH whether failure to de-platform those taking that position is itself rape culture, now that’s another story. But it does bring up, just how obnoxious about their point do they have to be before they wear out their welcome.