I’ve been thinking about making this thread for a while, because I’ve been following the massive thread on Kavanaugh, and holy fucking shit is it rapey in there! Not sure how to best put my thoughts on it, but it’s a good thing I don’t have to, because nelliebly said what I wanted to say but better:
I mean… are the mods keeping track of that thread? I know Bone stepped in to point out one particularly fucking disgusting statement (although that was just his personal distaste, rather than any actual moderator instruction to be less of a misogynist). I mostly just hang out there to see how fucking low we’re setting the bar, and at this point all we’re missing is a “she had it coming” before we’re officially at the level of “Fox News Comments Section”.
I don’t have a good solution for this problem, but I do think it’s important to call attention to the fact that we do, in fact, have this problem, and that women on the board have been speaking up about it quite extensively. There are something like 7 pit threads on the topic; maybe it’s time we had one in ATMB.
Keep in mind those threads are in the Pit. If you are looking for a nice and safe place, stay as far away from the Pit as you can.
Believe me, I am very much in favor of making this place less misogynistic, but the Pit is the Pit. There are quite a few topics in the Pit that would get moderated in a heartbeat in any other forum. As long as those posts don’t actually cross the line into trolling, then they are allowed in the Pit.
Uhh… The problem isn’t the pit. The problem is this. The Brett Kavanaugh thread, currently on page 67 and going strong. All of those pit threads are basically about this thread in elections, where a parade of the usual suspects are offering excuses ranging from the almost reasonable (“It’s just an allegation, we can’t convict based on that”) to the bat-fuck insane (“He was probably just holding his hands over her mouth to keep her from bothering the rest of the party, he wasn’t going to actually rape her”).
Not that misogyny is nicer in the pit, but if that’s your problem with what I’m saying… it ain’t the pit.
Let’s keep this thread focused on rape-related posts in the Pit (ETA: and other forums), please. Do not expand this thread into the broader topic of misogynistic behavior on the board in general. Misogynistic behavior on this board is definitely an issue here and I don’t want to dismiss it, but since it is a hot button topic for so many people it usually results in pages and pages of posts that just go around and around rehashing the same issues over and over, completely drowning out whatever smaller issue sparked the conversation. We need to be able to discuss the smaller issues without them getting lost in the broader discussion.
No, I think there’s a misunderstanding, this is literally all about the thread in elections. The seven pit threads I’m talking about? That’s not the rapey bit. That’s normal, sensible people responding with outrage to how incredibly fucking rapey the Brett Kavanaugh thread in elections got. If we can’t talk about that, then might as well close the thread.
I get it, and you can talk about that. I just want this thread in ATMB to focus only on that, and not expand to misogyny in general since we have already had quite a few threads on that here and they all end the same way, just going around and around with no resolution possible.
Let’s just keep the topic restricted a bit so that hopefully we can actually come to some sort of resolution here and fix the problem.
Just keep it related to Kavanaugh. You can discuss misogynistic responses related to that thread, just don’t expand it into the entire topic of misogyny on the SDMB or we won’t accomplish anything here. I am trying to restrict this to the issue that you brought up in the OP and not expand it so much that your issue gets lost.
There are a lot of posts in that thread that are…problematic. I don’t know if any mod has read through, but it might be worth someone delving into that swamp.
At a certain point, it starts to look like the victim-blaming and trivialization of attempted rape crosses way, way into jerk territory.
Since this mod note was based a bit on a misunderstanding of the OP, let me modify it to say “Let’s keep this thread focused on rape/Kavanaugh related posts in Elections.”
There are certainly posts in there that seem to justify attempted rape as just what passed as trying to get laid back then, everyone did it. Yes it is disgusting. AND IT BELONGS THERE.
These are the beliefs that a sizable portion of the electorate holds. They are the arguments that are out there. Elections should not be a safe place from the ugliness that makes up the political “debate” in this country.
Seems to me that posts that express the sentiment that attempted rape was just “trying to get laid” in the 80s are moddable as being a jerk at the very least.
Pointing out that an allegation is unsubstantiated, or contradicted by others allegedly present, or is outright bizarre like the Aventati claims, is not rape culture.
[ul][li]Not all claims of sexual assault are lies.[/li][li]Not all claims of sexual assault are true.[/li][li]Many claims of sexual assault can neither be proven nor disproven.[/li][li]Women have a right to be heard.[/li][li]Women do not have a right to be believed automatically or without question.[/li][li]Democrats and liberals are no more or less entitled to the assumption of good faith than Republicans and conservatives.[/ul]If any of the above upsets someone, they can stay out of the thread, or Pit someone. If they can’t do either of those things, too freaking bad. [/li]
Regards,
Shodan
If we’re only allowed to discuss a single example not the general misogyny, well, that’s kinda ridiculous, in my opinion.
In the thread in question, people have been allowed to discuss as they wish. Without parameters or limitations or moderation. But here, there will be strict limits to the topic. Let’s just discuss what DOESN’T make a mod uncomfortable, k?
What a crazy restriction. Anyone think this is fair? Ugh, y’all couldn’t be arsed to mod that thread, but step right up to keep this one inside the lines, 11 posts in!
The mods are now perfecting illustrating the breadth of the REAL problem. Ugh, just when you thought maybe things will improve!
I’m out, enjoy your watered down, fully supervised, mod approved discussion, entirely inside the lines!
Pretty sure this thread isn’t about any of those things. Rather, this thread is about the claims that what Ford claimed happened isn’t a big deal, is just “trying to get laid”, that Ford and/or Ramirez share the blame for what they experienced (if their allegations are true), that they should be faulted for not reporting their experiences at the time, as well as the personal aspersions and denigrating language used on these women, all of which can reasonably be characterized as a part of rape culture.
As are the rationales of “Boys will be boys,” “You can’t hold a man accountable for something that happened over thirty years ago,” “She should have reporrted it at the time instead of laying in wait to attack him now,” “If she can’t remember every ancillary detail and produce witnesses her account isn’t reliable,” “She got away, therefore no harm, no foul,” “There isn’t enough evidence to convict Cavanaugh or attempted rape, therefore Ford shouldn’t be allowed to testify,” et cetera.
There is the legitimate question of whether Ford’s claim is credible versus Cavanaugh’s reputation for integrity, and if she were an inveterate liar who pulled this out of the air with no prior mention then dismissing a claim out of hand without investigation might be warranted, but that is not the case here; she made prior mention of the attack to a therapist, Cavanaugh’s partner in the alleged attack has written extensively about his teenage partying including pressuring women into sex, and she otherwise has a reputation for honesty, whereas Cavanaugh has repeatedly evaded direct questions about his past and the Senate Judiciary Committee was given scant hours to review the little documentation released of his history prior to the hearings. At this point, it is Cavanaugh who has little credibility, and Ford’s laims should be given public hearing.
The rationales for opposing Ford to testify all add up to, “It wasn’t rape, and even if it was, it doesn’t matter ‘caise Cavanaugh is a good guy.” That her testimony would not be sufficient in and of itself to obtain a hypothetical conviction in a court of law is irrelevent; senate confirmation hearings are largely about the character of the nominee, and we need to hear a lot more about Cavanaugh’s character than his evasions and silence.
Speaking of starting discussions, I’m thinking about starting one about drama queens.
Instead of throwing hissy-fits and making dramatic exits, I suggest instead that we get what we want by following procedures. One can discuss anything in pretty much any way here, you just have to go about it the right way.
The accusation I’m seeing in this thread is that, because people aren’t allowed to rant and rave wherever and whenever and however they want, the SDMB doesn’t care about the issues. I don’t accept that as a valid charge.
Oh, and one more thing; most women aren’t wall flowers who are going to blanch and flee the board just because a few assholes post misogynist statements. This isn’t some 1940’s movie where women faint and fall into men’s arms at the sight of a mouse.
I have a president who was recorded exultantly bragging about how he could sexually assault women with impunity because he is so rich and powerful, and a good thirty or forty million of his supporters don’t give a damn. Do you really think anything anyone says here is going to bother me?
It’s a video of Emma Vigeland of The Young Turks, a progressive news show, interviewing Trump supporters at a rally asking them about Kavanaugh’s accuser. None of them got into real details of the assault but many of them gave the response that they thought she was fabricating the story because she didn’t come forward with it earlier.
Some quotes:
“i’m sure she’s making it up. I hate to say that, but she is. Most men are very compassionate towards women, on something like that, and women aren’t.”
“As a woman, I think it’s horrible that she should bring this up 35, 36 years later. If she was really assaulted, she should have reported at the time. By waiting this length of time, she makes all women look bad.”
When asked about the statistic that only 23% of assaults are reported at the time, she answers:
“I’ve seen enough episodes of Law and Order SVU that that’s probably correct.”
One guy said that even if what she’s saying is true, the Statute of Limitations has passed. The interviewer sounded stunned for a minute since this isn’t a criminal trial, but the guy was not fazed.