Brake service opinions wanted

In My Humble Opinion
1

I have a 1998 Honda Civic DX with about 120K miles on it. I just took it in for the interval service at the dealer and got the following information back. They said I have 5% left on my front brakes and that the rotors are rusty. They recommend that the rotors and brake pads be replaced within 7000 miles. Their price would be $395.

Now, I’m pretty conservative about these things and I know it’s a safety issue, so I would err toward doing it all. I am bummed about another $400 after the service cost $400 but I’ll do what I have to. But I would like to understand more about this.

A friend tells me that it isn’t necessary to replace rusty rotors, just warped ones. Would it be OK to just replace the pads? I assume that’s what the 5% refers to? Would that save me much $$ in terms of the cost of the rotor and presumably extra labor?

I also have a local mechanic I could try whose labor is cheaper than the dealer, obviously. My friend says they would use after-market parts. Is there a big difference in quality between Honda parts and after-market parts for something like this?

I know it may not be relevant for this, but do they still grind rotors or do they just replace them these days?

2

Yes, they still turn rotors. However, your rotors may not be turnable–just because they said they were rusty doesn’t mean that’s all that’s wrong with them.

Using after-market brake parts is not really a problem, IMO. Charging almost $400 for only the front brakes seems a little high, but I am not familiar with your market. I have my 1997 Camry brakes done all the way around for $279 at Les Schwab, so there you go.

Don’t just replace the pads…have the rotor work done as well. And that $395 they want to charge you better include more than just the rotors and pads; it should include the…cylinders is the word I think I’m looking for.

3

My personal opinion based on working on my own cars since I was 16:

A mechanic who tells you you should replace your rotors because they are “rusty” should not be gone back to. All brake rotors will generate surface rust overnight in damp environments. The only solution to this would be to oil them, which would be a bad idea for obvious reasons. (in case it’s not so obvious, it would invoilve the words OH MY GOD IT WON’T STOP WE’RE ALL GOING TO DIE!!!)

Your local mechanic should happily use whichever parts you tell him, including genuine honda parts from the dealership. However, in most cases he will use a good quality aftermarket part (if he’s reputable) that will perform just as well as the Honda parts would at a significantly lower cost.

As for it being OK to just replace the pads, your mechanic will want to test the rotor to see how much material is left (this is, IMO, what the Honda mechanic should have done instead of telling you it was rusty). If it’s less than a certain specified thickness (or if it’s warped and unable to be machined), it should be replaced.

I’m sure gary or rick will be along at some point to give you a thorough professional opinion, this is mine basedon having a dad who has been a mechanic for Chrysler for 40 years, and my taking auto shop in high school and continuin to do routine maintenance items on my car (including brakes) for 17 years.

4

I think the word you were looking for is calipers.

As for the grinding (aka “turning”) the rotors, it is still done, however on many newer cars they make the rotors lighter by not making them thick enough to be turned. Once you wear them down enough to have replaced the pads a couple times, the rotors are ready to be replaced. Only someone with the right spec book and an outside micrometer can tell you for sure.

5

Thanks for the input so far. I am curious on the breakdown of the $395 now. Here are brake pad sets for ~$40. What do I look under for the rotor? What is a ballpark on how much labor goes into replacing both? stretch, they didn’t mention calipers but it was just a note on the service papers.

The dealer is $70+ per hour and my neighborhood place is $48 I think.

6

Calipers! That’s the word. I knew it started with a “c” but I always think of calipers as something completely different than the things in the brake system.

$400 for new rotors (which are less than $40 buck each for my Camry) and pads is too much. A brake job doesn’t take very much time if you have the right tools, which a shop does. You need a better breakdown of the estimate, for sure.

7

For a '98 DX, you can buy good aftermarket rotors yourself at the local Pep Boys or Kragen for around $40-50 each, so expect them to cost $80-100 each at the shop. The pads are also about $40-50 for a set of four.

Keep in mind these are aftermarket prices, so genuine Honda parts will cost more. I’d wager that $395 for the job at the dealer is a good price, provided they’re replacing the rotors and pads and not just machining the rotors. When shop labor is in the area of $75 an hour, it can be cheaper (or at least fairly cost-effective to all but the most price-sensitive people) to just swap rotors by default, rather than to take the time to inspect them and do any machining.

8

Just FYi for a cost comparison: I did a set of front brakes (pads and rotors) on a 1996 Honda Civic LX last weekend, and bought all the parts I needed for $125. Brembo rotors with Nissin pads. Took me about a half-hour of work, and much of that was waiting for the disc brake quiet to dry. :slight_smile:

I’m not sure how many hours “the book” says a front brake job should take.

9

Darn it. I really wish you lived in New England. :stuck_out_tongue:

10

Here’s all the parts this place is showing for the brakes. But I don’t see a rotor offered??

11

Even in New England it’s still easy, and probably about that same cost in materials… granted it’s a bit colder in the driveway this time of year than it was a few months ago… :smiley:

If you are even remotely handy with tools, it’s about a 1/2 hour job, and a great thing to know how to do yourself.

12

Part # 19 45251-SR3-A10 DISK, FR. BRAKE 2 1998 CIVIC 63.25 47.44

13

'Nother backyard mechanic checking in. They’re calling it a disk in that blowup diagram - part number 19.

I want to know what’s in those front caliper assemblies that causes them to list for just north of $12,000 each (parts 4 and 5). Unless they come with a working car attached, I’d go aftermarket on those. :smiley: Seriously, though - WTH?

14

I’m OK with tools, but I think a brake job might not be the place to start :stuck_out_tongue: :eek:

Thanks! For some reason I was picturing a rod?? :smack: and didn’t know (obviously) rotor = drum.

15

Hmm, yeah, #4 for $108.94 or the #4 for $12,044.07 …? What the hell, I’ll splurge this once.

16

If I were going to buy the parts myself, do I just need the set of pads #6 and two of #19? Or are there other parts involved?

17

And would a mechanic be willing to use what I supplied?

18

You should probably get some brake fluid that conform to the specs of your particular system (probably DOT 3 or DOT 4).

A mechanic may be willing to use what you give him/her, but many are not. They stand behind their work, and are not necessarily (correctly, IMHO) willing to use parts that came from who-knows-where.

I’m lucky that I have a mechanic who’s willing to throw whatever I give him into my car, but I’m willing to take the consequences, too. :slight_smile:

19

Well looking at the parts illustration, Rotors are $63.25 each, pads are $50.70 for a parts total of $176.20. I don’t know what taxes are like where you live, but let’s go with 8% for about $14.08 for a parts and tax total of 190.28.
$395 less $190 leaves us with $205 for labor.
I don’t know what the book time is for pads and rotors on a Civic. Pad replacement alone can run between 0.5- 1.0 hours depending on the car. I would expect the rotor replacement to run at least twice those numbers.
Gary T is the guy with the time guides, he would be able to give us proper numbers.
I also have no clue what the driveway labor rate is in your area. So depending on the time guide, and labor rate, this estimate might not be that far off.

As far as the rust issue goes, there is rust and there is rust. Also with 120,000 miles on a 1998 Civic it is quite possible that after the rust there is just flat not enough meat left to turn the rotors. They could be undersized already.

If you are not an experienced shade tree mechanic I would not suggest you start your car fixing experience with brakes. If you screw these up, someone can be injured, or die.

20

Get a second opinion from a reputable shop that will explain things to you to your satisfaction.

If the pads are indeed 95% worn I wouldn’t try to go any 7,000 miles. A month ago was not too soon to replace them, and I think you’d be pushing your luck to put it off any longer than a month from now.

Overnight surface rust isn’t an issue here, and almost certainly is not what they were referring to. It’s not unusual for rotors to start rusting away on their edges, and sometimes it eats away a significant amount of the surface. In these cases resurfacing often won’t restore much of the eroded surface area before the rotor is too thin to use. It’s quite plausible that the rotors need to be replaced, but we can’t judge that from here. A good shop will evaluate them based on various factors including thickness, degree of warpage, and amount of rust erosion.

400 strikes me as high for this, assuming the job is strictly replacing front pads and rotors. My estimator shows 1.8 for this. For a dealership with a labor rate as indicated and using Honda parts, I would have expected about 325. It’s a pretty safe bet that a good independent shop can provide a top quality repair for less than the 400.

Factory parts are the benchmark for quality, but a fair portion of top-grade aftermarket parts equal or even exceed them. You can’t go wrong with factory parts, but sometimes you can do better with aftermarket ones.

But not all aftermarket parts are created equal. One of the problems with the aftermarket is that there are also options for poorer quality that cost less, and many people choose them based on price. In the long run, though, it often costs more to do it cheap.

I recommend selecting a good shop and letting them provide the entire repair. What’s the point of bringing the parts? The shop can get anything you can get. If you somehow get the wrong stuff, there are delays and hassles. It’s not likely to save you much, if any, money. And you’re in warranty limbo - if something goes wrong, you’re stuck in the middle between a parts supplier who might claim they were installed wrong and a service provider who might claim they were defective. I don’t see anything to be gained by bringing your own parts.

Since it’s been mentioned, I’ll clarify one aspect. This type of service (like most in auto repair) is priced by the job, not by the clock. You may hear or see references to “book time” or “hours,” but that’s industry jargon (sloppily used, because of the obvious potential for confusion) and does not purport to indicate billing by actual time spent.