Brake service opinions wanted

Another thing to consider os that your parts shop very likley has an array of parts on hand, but might not have everything they need to do every job right away. They have suppliers who get them parts with short lead times, but those suppliers aren’t pushing loss leader items like Pep Boys is, trying to get people into a store to buy overpriced “tuner” mods for their econoboxes. So the suppliers charge a price which includes a cost to deliver parts on a short schedule, and the shop marks it up 20% or so (and rightly so, since they probably have to either spend some of their work time in receiving and verifying parts or paying someone else to do that, and then you look in your Pep Boy’s catalog and see that they have that same item on sale that week for 50% of the price the shop charged you. It’s apples and oranges. Pep boys bought 2000 oil filters that month, and the shop only bought 20, so they don’t get anywhere near the same treatment.

Are there shops which are disreputable and charge too much for parts? Sure there are. But, in my opinion, of you find a mechanic you can trust and who is competant, it’s well worth paying him a markup on parts so he can sustain his business. As Gary and Rick have mentioned, I know very few auto mechanic shop owners who have summer homes in Hilton Head and live in million dollar homes. Most work very hard for their money but get looked at sideways by all of their customers…'tis not a job I could do.

If this is indeed your experience, then yes, those shops are disreputable. I have had experiences like this at Sears, where they wanted to charge me over 200 dollars for a part which I could have acquired for 100 myself. This is why I do not get my auto work done at sears, and why it does pay a little bit to know general pricing of parts before getting an estimate. It’s called doing your homework, and it’s the same for car repairs as it is for furnace repairs and buying a big screen TV.

I once needed the power steering unit replaced on my car, and was quoted a price for it (around 300). I checked around and found a place which had a rebuilt unit for around 100 bucks, and then called the shop…his remark? Well, I’m only charging you 98 for the one from my supplier, so you can bring yours in but it’s not going to save you any money.

Needless to say that shop got a lot of my business.

crazyjoe, I hear your point and I’m kosher with paying list or a little bit more. Even if Pep Boys is selling it for 60% of list. Unfortunately in my experience most mechanics charge way over list. It seems that the Sears, Firestones, Goodwrenches of the world are especially fond of doing so and most of the mechanics in the area seem to follow suit for most standard repairs ($95 for a fucking serpentine belt?!?).

Your example of charging a 20% premium on parts to account for receiving and time costs doesn’t wash with me. Not because there’s no cost there, but because using a percentage is a dicey proposition. I’ll swallow 20% of the cost of a filter or a gasket, but 20% of a transmission is a huge amount of money. I know that that tranny doesn’t take exponentially more time or effort to order and receive than those $20 parts do.

Charge a flat “parts handling fee” if you’re convinced that the profit between the shops wholesale price and list price isn’t enough, but a 20% markup across the board isn’t equitable.

In a nutshell, not having to fabricate a new pricing system.

As I said in a previous reply, but didn’t emphasize, the main reason auto shops have a significant markup on parts is tradition. That’s how it’s always been done (in a general sense - particulars change with time), and it’s easier to follow the well-worn path than to carve a new one.

Nevertheless, your point about the psychological effect of those parts prices is a good one. It is sometimes problematic, and there is ongoing discussion among the thinkers in our field about how to deal with it. Some advocate exactly what you suggest - higher labor rates and lower parts markups. I’m (slowly, cautiously) heading that way myself.

Some background may be helpful in developing insight into the situation.

There was a time when professional repair shops were given a genuine wholesale price on parts, while the general public paid retail. The prices paid by the do-it-yourselfer at a parts store were much closer to (and sometimes the same as) those at a repair shop. During this era it was also typical for mechanics’ pay to be a commission of half of the billed labor.

Things have really changed, especially in the aftermarket. Many parts venues have targeted and competed for do-it-yourself sales. Often what a walk-in customer pays is within 10% of what a shop pays. And in the aftermarket “retail price” is a hazy concept, at best. There is “suggested list,” which no one pays (at the parts store) anymore. Even it is a poor guide - I’ve seen cases where the same part has 25% difference in list price at two different stores, yet the same wholesale price to shops.

And while the palatability of shops getting a hefty parts markup has been declining, the costs of providing good auto service have been increasing. Shops found they needed to raise their labor rates significantly, and without passing half of it on to the mechanics. The trend has been to lower percentages in commission pay (typically 25-30% of billed labor), and higher percentages in parts markup (100% in some markets). Shops are hesitant to further increase labor rates, but also becoming more aware of the downside of high parts markup.

The pricing systems used by most shops have not changed to reflect the times. A better, fairer system would have smaller parts markups and a big jump in labor rates. Problem is, who’s going to go first? Having a labor rate 50%-100% higher than everyone else doesn’t look so good to the average consumer. It would probably hit a brick wall with repair-warranty companies, who sometimes have a labor cap. It could really put one in a bind in a court of law.

So from a shop’s point of view, you can have some problems related to parts prices, or you can change and have problems related to labor rates. The former is a flawed but known to be workable approach. The latter is untested and brings the risk - and fear - of failure. Change likely will occur, but it’s unlikely to be sudden or rapid.


I will suggest this. I don’t think it’s particularly effective for consumers to be concerned about a shop’s labor rate, or which estimator it uses, or what its parts markup is, or any of the other variables that factor into price. The meaningful figure is the bottom line - $X to do such-and-such job. Hell, even that is of limited help in drawing comparisons, because there are also variables in intangibles such as accuracy in evaluation/diagnosis, quality of workmanship, and thoroughness in addressing problems. These can all affect how much the customer pays in the long run. While that particular brake rotor might be a commodity, the repair as a whole isn’t.

I pretty much always bring my own parts to my mechanic when either of my vehicles needs work. Why? Because he hates parts shopping, that’s why. I have the six major parts suppliers saved on my contact list, and every one of them has a meet or beat pricing policy. I get my mechanic’s views on what he’d recommend for my specific needs and make my own determination of how much I want to put into it. For some parts a refurb is okay, for some parts I want to go premium–such as heavy duty fleet rotors and pads for my full size van, or maybe a little more performance oriented bits and pieces for the zoom zoom car. Then I go to work setting the parts guys against each other, get the lowest rock bottom price I can find, then call up the closest parts shop to my mechanic and ask what the price would be if I were buying for his shop (for some reason they think I work for the guy, go figure–just because I’ll go parts running for him while my ride’s being worked on, I guess…) Whatever the lowest price is, I can usually get another five percent off. Then I take everything in to my guy and he puts it all on for me, no huhu.

It works for us both, because my shopping fu is strong and he doesn’t have to figure out the markup and wait to have stuff delivered or go out to get stuff when he’s busy with another project. I drive up with everything necessary in the trunk and Bob’s yer uncle. I know this doesn’t work for everybody, but I’m so spoiled I can’t deal with regular repair shops any more–I KNOW how they’re trying to screw me and how far they’re sticking it in and I can’t help but tell them when they’re fulla shit. I tend to already have the parts priced before I go in, too. For example, I needed a new catback exhaust for the Cav, so I priced the parts out. Best parts only estimate I could find was about $125, then I found an exhaust shop who installed an OEM system for $130. I knew they weren’t trying to ass rape me because I did my homework and I knew what the parts should cost–they made their money on their wholesale price on parts, fair enough. Another place I called quoted me over $300 for the exact same system! :eek:

I think shops that won’t install brand new parts purchased directly by the customer are shops that just want to fuck over clueless people who’re scared of car problems. They get their stuff from Napa or Thrifty or Schucks or Knecht’s just the same as I do, but if they admit that they lose their cash cow…

How silly of me. All this time I thought I had other reasons, but now I realize I just want to fuck over clueless people. :rolleyes:

Gary T, thanks for the response. I take some solace in the fact that apparently my logic was sound based on your input. I’m a little surprised that you mention that this problem is one that’s being discussed amongst some group of professionals. Is there some body or group that’s perceived as the reference standard for best practices?

In short, it’s not the least bit surprising that “because thats the way it’s always been done” is the primary rationale for how thing operate now. Changing that inertia is obviously a big deal and something that your average shop probably isn’t eager to do. Still, were I to find a shop who adopted this new method and informed customers of it I’d probably be a loyal customer.

Bear with me now, I’ll admit that I didn’t read much past the second or third post. Too maddining.

Brakes are too easy. Usually one or two tools, after removing the wheel. No mess, no fuss. I did a 96 Nissan in fifteen minutes. One wrench, and one clamp (because I’m lazy) . For Four Hundred dollars, they better be painting your house.

Rust? You can have all the rust you want. The operating principle of brakes is friction. You step on the pedal, and the pads squeeze the rotor. Much heat and friction result. Rust is gone in about .3 seconds (or less).

Any mechanic that won’t install parts you bring them is a crook. Mechanics get paid for LABOR. Yes, they charge up to $75 an hour, and sometimes its worth it. If they replaced your brakes with parts you brought them, they would make an hour labor (because that is the minimum) and spend a half-hour watching Oprah on your dime. By quoting you a $400 figure, they are padding their timecard by 3 and a half hours. Because they can.

Stay away from Midas. They can offer the “Lifetime Warrenty” because the charge you 4 time the price of the repair the first time.

Honestly people. Pick up a wrench.

I wonder if it’s as maddening as being called a crook by someone who has no knowledge of the reasons for policies against using customer-supplied parts nor any understanding of the dynamics of dealing with said parts.

Read posts #30 & #31. Reserve your judgments for things you actually know something about.

That’s true of light surface rust. That’s absolutely not true of heavy erosive rust which can gouge away a lot of the rotor surface. You may not have run across it in the dozen or dozens of cars you’ve worked on. I have run across it numerous times in the thousands of cars I’ve seen.

Read posts #19 & #20. Reserve your pronouncements for things you actually know about.

The mechanics themselves, generally yes. But REPAIR SHOPS charge for complete jobs, which involve parts and labor. And being businesses, they actually want to make some profit on parts and materials they sell. Novel concept, huh? Think any other businesses will follow suit, and sell things for more than they paid for them?

Maybe you should just open an auto repair shop and put all the crooks out of business by running yours the way you think it should be done. Losing money hand over fist might broaden your perspective a bit.

It’s no official reference standard, but the International Automotive Technicians Network (iatn.net) is a web-based organization of auto repair professionals, sharing all sorts of information and opinions regarding auto repair. Two of its discussion forums, the Shop Management Forum and the Industry Issues Forum*, often have interchanges on the subject we’ve been discussing. Typically the participants are people who really care about the trade, its image, how customers are treated, etc. It helps us all to share both new ideas and proven procedures. Those who want to make things better have a resource to help with that.


*I believe they’re only accessible to iATN members.