Breeding and Church Attendence

The BBQ Pit
21

To answer the question of why parents drag their kids to church - the answers could be many.

If the parents are uptight repressed “Church Lady” types, it’s because they want to spread the misery…err…ahem…“joy” of their repressed little church to their kids.

In other instances, it’s because the church has this thing called Sunday School—and it can be mighty fun for a kid. The first congregation I remember (before my parents took us to the more sour-faced congregation) was so cool. I still remember loving Sunday School - it was fun, the Sunday School teacher was much beloved. I don’t remember being “dragged” to it at all. Like kellibelli and I have mentioned before, it all depends on what kind of church experience you are talking about. They’re not created equal.

Also - I think it’s human nature to expect your kids to participate in things that you think are important. If church is one of those things, then that’s what you’ll take them to. If you’re an art lover, you’ll take them to art galleries - if you love Monster Truck Rallies, you might take them to that. If you love Big Band music, you can bet the kids are going to see Big Band concerts at some point or another. If you are a vegetarian, you will probably prepare veggie meals for the kids too. (We could open a whole can of worms here about vegetarian parents “forcing” their kids to become veggie - but that could be the topic of a different thread. I’m just saying - a vegetarian parent is most likely going to be exposing their kids to vegetarianism, right?) Whatever the parent finds important, they’ll most likely “drag” the kid into doing too, at least for a while.

22

Small quibble:

That is not Catholic doctrine. The Catholic Church recognizes that lots of non-Catholics and non-Christians are going to heaven.
There are a number of Catholics who follow the theological speculation that an unbaptized good person (including a baby) cannot enter heaven and will remain in Limbo (an adjunct to Hell in which there is no suffering, but one can’t see God). Limbo is also not Catholic doctrine (regardless of what Sister Mary Ironlaw may have claimed at Our Lady of Perpetual Responsibilty school).

The reason for not Baptizing an infant who, it appears, may not be brought up Catholic is to avoid the idea that the Church can Baptize them into the Church and then God can punish them later for not following Church rule.

These are the short answers, of course, and they are certainly open to challenge.

Tom~

23

Let me tell you about the church that I was raised in, and you tell me if it’s ok to send your kid there. The church had children’s church, which is called “Superchurch.” The kids play games, sing fun songs, get positive teaching, and learn about God’s Word, in a simple fashion that children can grasp. To make a long story short, kids think church is FUN. They can hang out with friends, and enjoy themselves.

Without even saying it, many of you were descibing Catholic services. Let me tell you, there is a big difference between Catholic masses, and the Superchurch that I just described. What kid could possibly enjoy God while being forced to keep quiet, and keep absolutely still?

Of course, I feel that we should be in church from the time we are born, to the time we die. The lessons learned in church stay with us, and are instrumental in our moral development.

If you want to take your kids to church, take them to a place where kids can be kids. Don’t take them to a place that steals the joy of youth.

Adam

“Life is hard…but God is good”

24

Arg220 said:

Not quite fair to assume that because a service is solemn, it has to be Catholic. The tone of the service is, in many respects, up to the priest celebrating mass. Some are much more serious than others. Friends of mine from various Protestant denominations have described services that were also cheerless. Also, when I was a small sprite, my Catholic church held a children’s mass each week that was designed to be much more engaging for kids.

The issue of what to do with small children is a little more complicated. On the one hand, I agree with you that small children are not ideal candidates for sitting through a mass. But what do you do with them - get a babysitter for an hour? Have one parent stay home? Either option might be a little difficult to arrange, or not acceptable (if, say, you want church attendance to be a family affair).

A nice alternative I once saw in a Methodist church involved having the kids sit through scripture readings and then leave to attend Sunday school, while the adults remained for the rest of the service. But that worked only because the congregation was relatively small. In the parish I grew up in (heavily Irish and Italian), Sunday services were held in three separate locations, simultaneously, every hour on the hour from 8 a.m. to 1 p.m., because there were someting like 10,000 registered families in the parish. What the heck can you do with all those kids?

Other ways to make religion an enjoyable experience for children include attending Sunday school or participation in activities that are church-oriented (e.g., children’s choir, church-sponsored community service).

One more thought here: I think that by the time kids reach school age, they ought to be able to sit quietly for 45 minutes for a regular church service (if no alternatives are available). The idea here is not that you want to torture them by not letting them run and play, but that they come to understand and respect the ceremony involved. If they can’t sit still for 45 minutes, I’d start worrying about how they will ever manage in school.

25

I think that some people are going off topic. The question wasn’t about whether church was a bad thing or not, it was about whether it’s right to start going to church when you have children so that they get morals. I don’t think anyone here is saying that Christians or bad, and no one (except Opal, I guess) is saying that Christianity is bad. What is bad (IMO) is taking kids to religious services if you don’t believe in that religion, just cause kids need some sort of a “moral upbringing.”

As for veggie-ness: I am a vegeterian. When I have kids, I will raise them to be vegetarian, because there will never be meat in my house! No biggie. I will allow my children to choose what they want for themselves. Same thing with religion. I will take my children to religious services, but if there ever comes a day when they don’t want to go, or they want to convert to another religion, I might be disappointed, but that is every individual’s choice.

~Harborina

26

Adam, I go to the same kind of church. My son goes to Superchurch or kidschurch. Its tailored for them. Cool.

27

As for the “going to church when you have kids” thing, perhaps having children makes you more thoughtful about your own spirituality? Perhaps they view it as something of tradition? A way of bonding within the family?

Obviously, if you went to church and hated it, you’re probably not going to send your own children there. “Gee, when I was young my parents used to beat me with a rock. When I have a baby, I think I’ll do the same out of tradition.” But simply because someone has a lapse in church going doesn’t speak of any major moral objection to religion as a whole or Christianity in particular. (What’s all this talk of the Christian Church? I take “The Church” to mean Catholicism and “Christian church” to mean any of hundreds of denominations of Xianity).

Anyway, there’s far worse things you can do than bring a child to a loving church to learn a sense of spirituality and faith. If you don’t think your church was loving enough then don’t go there. Duh. But to say that sending your child to church means you’re not willing to teach moral resposibility yourself is like saying if you send your child to school you don’t love them enough to teach them about science, math, english, etc. on your own. One compliments the other.

“I guess one person can make a difference, although most of the time they probably shouldn’t.”

28

I find it interesting that everyone is saying that “when you have children you start back to church”. Maybe one reason is because you want to offer your child the same opportunities that you had as a child. If going to church as a child was that bad for a parent, I really don’t think they would make their children go. My parents did not attend church. As children my oldest brothers and I would walk across the street and go to church with our friends.
One day my youngest brother (he was 8 at the time) looked at my mom and asked her what are angels and where did they come from? The next Sunday my mom was in church with my younger brother. While my older brothers continued to attend church with their friends, I went with my mom and little brother. A small, loving, country church with members that would always gather around to help a neighbor…be that person a church member or not. At the risk of getting really flamed…the Bible states that every man must work out his own salvation with trembling and fear. I think that is true. We must each find our own way. Love is the most important issue. To love someone is not to say you love that person’s way of life. I need to get off this soapbox…this is the pit.

“Do or do not, there is no try” - Yoda

  • Intern to El Presidente
    Self-Righteous Clique *
29

I know a lot of people who suddenly decided that church was important after they had children. Unfortunatly, nothing in their lives changed except what they did on Sunday mornings. I think its wonderful when people decide to change their lives for the better, become more spiritual, ect., but going to church does not automatically make you a better person. And you can not expect that an hour or two a week is going to mold your child into a moral individual.

We are a family of atheists, yet I have not noticed any significant lack of morals in our son. In fact, he’s a great kid, very kind and giving to others. I must admit, that I have become more aware of my own actions since giving birth, since I know that two little eyes are watching my every move I make and learning from them.

One thing that drives me nuts, and I’m wondering if it bothers anyone else, is when people who are admitted atheists christen their babies. My mother in law wanted me to christen our son, but I felt that it would be disrespectful of her church to take part in a ceremony that we didn’t believe in. However, a lot of our atheist friends elected to have their children christened. I just don’t understand it at all.

30

I’ve read all the posts and find very little to disagree with any of them. But the two that keep echoing are Opal’s and Yosemitebabe’s. There simply is nothing more personal and self-defining than belief, and individual experiences shape us all.

Boring story: my folks divorced very acrimoniously when I was 5. My mom, hoping to give my sis and I some stability, tried to become more active in our church. It awful. We sat in the pew just after the separation and were pilloried in front of everyone. The entire sermon was a thundering denunciation of divorce and and sin and evil and we had to sit there and take it.

Keep in mind these were our neighbors and supposed friends. (And some were truly friends and Christian in fact.) But my mom and 2 little girls were flayed and humiliated in front of a crowd. By a self righteous son-of-a-bitch in pastoral clothing.

My sister and I both refused to attend church again, ever. (And some of our classmates, throughout years more of school, refused to associate with us as “kids of a broken home, i.e. sin”)

Sorry, as you can see, after all these years that memory is still a spray of acid. No, it wasn’t typical or characteristic of the faith. But it happened. To us. In the name of religion.

My Dad handled it differently. He took us to all kinds of services; we went to a Jewish temple, a Muslim mosque, a Friends/Quaker meeting, etc. In his own way, he taught us that all faiths have dignity and truth.

Sooo…end of loooong boring story, nothing can be more central than faith, but nothing can be as damaging, either. Faith, by the nature of it, just is. It’s its own critter, for good or bad.

I still avoid churches like the Ebola virus. I can’t walk in one without the sweaty palms, elevated heart rate, jumpy stomach, etc. That doesn’t make churches or Christianity or any other religion bad. But that tolerance learned in the hardest way isn’t anything bad either.

Sorry. Didn’t mean to vent like that.

Veb

31

Kelli, thank for saying exactly what I was thinking when I saw this thread.

32

And furthermore I can honestly say that I have never felt anything but welcome at my church, and the people there are legitimately happy to meet you and are always very friendly.
Even when my husband and I were invited to officially join the church there was no pressure, just a genuine invitation because we were there.
As far as my daughter is concerned, sure she doesn’t always like to go , but once she gets there she has a good time. Also there are alot of people , myself included, who do alot of work with the children by organizing activities and ‘clubs’ for them to be a part of. And my shy daughter is now in drama and choir and as many activities as she wants!
If you are going to dump your kids off at church hoping that the people there will instill a value system in them then you are nuts, but if you take the time to be a part of the ‘community’ and be involved and involve your child then I believe that you are headed in the right direction.(this does NOT mean that going to church is the only way to teach these values, but it is definately a tool you can use)

By the way Kel the new minister is young and single…wanna go to church Sunday? It’s his first day!! :slight_smile:

33

I’m not sure what the difference is since individuals make up a group. You seem rather hostile though, I am sure that must be based on something. Why would chirstians act so defensively when it comes to your religion? Could you tell me a little bit more about this Wiccan thing? I hear a lot about it on these boards, but it is an unknown thing in Europe. Maybe you could provide me with some info, links, etc.?

FWIW, I was raised slightly catholic but I consider myself to have no religion. My future children will have no religious ‘indoctrination’: I will introduce them to all forms of religion when they are old enough to understand. They can make their own choices when they’re capable. It is not up to me to decide that my son cannot become a Bhuddist or something else for that matter.

Coldfire

"You know how complex women are"

  • Neil Peart, Rush (1993)
34

I’d love to know the answer of why people who have no religious beliefs christen their children or even get married in a church. If you don’t believe it, why participate in the ceremonies? What hypocracy.

Another reason people take their children to church is to become culturally literate. Most families do not read the Bible at home–really how many of you who are teaching your children moral values have a set time and actually spend time teaching? Don’t you just mostly model behavior? It’s not the same. I hated church myself after I got around 11. I loved it as a small child. All the churches I know have nurseries for small children so they don’t have to go to the service. I enjoy keeping kids in the nursery now–we rock the babies, play blocks with the toddlers, do the hokey-pokey with the 3-4 year olds, etc. Real cruelty to expose a child to that, eh? I enjoyed sunday school as a little child. We learned Bible stories, colored, pasted, did crafts, sang songs. From Birth to 4, most of the churchs I have attended had a nursery so kids did not have to sit through the service. From 4-6 or 7, the children leave after the Children’s service so they don’t have to sit through the sermon and have learning activities on their levels. Gosh, how cruel.
Even when I became a teen and HATED going to church, I’ll have to admit I learned a lot that has made me culturally literate. I know what common phrases mean like “poor as Job’s turkey” or “passing a camel through the eye of a needle”. I’m constantly amazed at how many people are totally unaware of the extent to which the Bible underpins Western culture. Like it or now, much of our government, societal mores, institutions, etc are based on Jewish/and or Christian culture. Since it’s difficult to include this kind of background in public schools without being so religious that it violates the Constitution, many children grow up ignorant of the roots of the culture in which they live.
And, P.S. no to be rude, but don’t you think a person who drinks socially would be a little bit stupid to go to a Baptist Church? Why would anyone deliberately chose a religion known for it’s antipathy to alcohol if you like to enjoy a few social drinks? Ditto,for practicing homosexuals or divorced people–Jeez, common sense would tell you to call around and find a church that is in tune with your basic lifestyle before you attend it. That’s like a person who is adamantly pro-choice deciding to become politically involved and going to the local Republican Party meeting.

35

It is a mystery to me how churches of certain denominations can be so purposely exclusive. If you drink, don’t go to this church, or if you’re a homosexual, or god forbid a single parent. My mother attends a church with about the meanest, most judgemental bunch of people I’ve ever encountered, yet she doesn’t see it that way. When I point up specific examples, she stares blankly.

I remember a story similar to one mentioned earlier - my mom and I had moved back to the community following a divorce she did not want. My mother has always believed very firmly in marriage as a “till death do us part” kind of institution. Yet, here she was, a divorcee with a 9 or 10 year old child. For about a month, the pastor preached every Sunday about the evils of divorce and the threat divorced women and single mothers posed to society. After one particular sermon, I was upset to the point I had to be rushed to the emergency room with a religion induced panic attack. Mom never told a soul, and we continued to attend.

What finally did it for me was the Mother’s Day service a couple of years ago. The youngish pastor was going full tilt into his account of the wonders of motherhood and the family. The pews were full of grandmothers, mothers, youngsters, babies, just packed out. All of a sudden, his sermon rounds a corner and he’s on about abortion. In full, graphic, gory detail. I started to feel uncomfortable. I looked around, kids are squirming, looking confused, up at their mothers. Mothers are looking positively disgusted. I was appalled. I have never set foot in that building again.

My mother recently divorced for a second time under painful circumstances. She had been to the pastor requesting councelling, both with her husband and alone. The pastor would not, or could not, offer any assistance. She allowed herself to be emotionally trampled by a man who had left her because her church told her that was the thing to do. She finally couldn’t take it anymore. Later she told me that the pastor (the youngish anti-abortion one again) preached morning and evening services for 5 weeks solid on the sanctity of marriage and the evils of divorce. I don’t know how he could look her in the face.

So no, I don’t necessarily think it’s a good thing to drag your kids to church. If you go anyway, and you know it’s a good environment, with healthy, loving people, then taking your kids there is not going to be a bad thing. But there are so many opportunities for the Church Experience to go wrong that you have to go into it with open eyes and a willingness to search for what’s right for you, if anything.

36

Man, talk about some hellish church experiences!

I would never tolerate a church that did some of the horrible things that some of you have mentioned (preaching against divorce directly to a divorcee, etc.) That is so rude and tacky. I’m not saying my church is perfect, but no one would ever be so rude or unkind. And that is really what it is about - being unkind. Very unChristian, in my opinion.

I guess I was fortunate growing up - my dad was sort of a “rabble rouser” and would speak up when he felt someone was getting out of line at church. I remember him “embarrassing” our family by speaking out about certain policies that bothered him. (Later we realized that he was right about whatever it was that was bothering him.) And, if and when things went too far, we left the congregation and found one that suited our needs. I don’t advocate just upping and leaving every time someone at church ruffles your feathers, but if there are serious problems at a church that you cannot reconcile yourself with, by all means, LEAVE!!!

A church is run by people, and people can sometimes be assholes. If you are a religious person, you answer to GOD, not to some fellow mortals at a church. I always thought a church was (at least in part) a place where like-minded people gathered to give each other support and to worship God in unison. If the church is full of unhappy, bitter people in conflict, I think the whole point of attending “church” is defeated.

In regards to the OP - I don’t know why someone with total apathy towards religion would drag their kids to church. The only thing that makes sense is something someone else has already mentioned - the parents start to re-think what is important to them, and decide that they want to re-explore their “spiritual side” (or something like that.) But whatever the reason, as long as the church is a loving, happy and uplifting experience, I don’t see any harm in it.

37

For whatever it’s worth.

As some of you may know from other threads, I am Roman Catholic. Moreover, I am an active member of the church. I attend Mass every Sunday, and I belong to a Catholic lay organization that devours much of my time.

I was raised Catholic. However, at about age 11, I had an experience which caused me to leave the Church for almost twenty years.

Nothing dramatic, I suppose… no terrible abuse or anything. I was just at an age where questioning everything was important. I valued logic and reason. And neither logic nor reason could take me beyond an uncaused first cause. In short, I questioned God’s existence… repeatedly. I demanded proof. I discussed the flaws in the Bible with my classmates.

But because I was still going to church and following Catholic precepts, I recognized that, at some level, this was sinful, at least by the standards I was questioning. And so in confession one Saturday, I laid it all out.

The priest savagely attacked me. I remember hearing the phrase, “Your confession has been blasphemous!” He read me the riot act.

It took me nearly twenty years to realize that what that priest did that day was not what Christ’s Church is about. When humans are in charge of something, they will not be infalliable. That priest was not speaking with the voice of God that day. He just had a bad day. Maybe the bishp had chewed him out. Or maybe he was a mean-spirited man whose strength was not in pastoral counseling. Who knows?

As I read these horror stories about church, I feel much the same way. Christ’s lessons to us emphasized peace, acceptance, understanding. He dined with prostitutes and tax collectors, for crying out loud! When hatred and intolerance is preached in His name, when people are pushed away at the time they most need their neighbor’s help… that is not Christian. It’s not Christ-like.

You may debate Christ’s divinity. But His teachings have a self-evident value, no matter the source.

This is not an attempt to witness. During the time I was away from the Church, I was so dead-set against religion that no argument could have moved me. Everyone who tries to live a good life, concerned for others, is living right, so far as I can see. I’m not in the business of dragging people to Christ.

I feel the most effective evangelization is simply living the life, quietly, that Christ teaches us to live. “Far stronger to win men than all the logic of truth is the force of noble lives.”

And that’s what I try to do.

The only reason I was moved to post this is that… that I wanted to say I’ve been there, lashed out at by a man claiming to speak for God. I’m here today to say that when he spoke of anger, of hurt, of exclusion, he didn’t speak with Christ’s voice.

That’s all.

  • Rick
38

I think there are two main reasons why married people with children seem to be more likely to go to church then single people. First of all, in general, having children seems to make folks become more traditional and conservative. Most people in this country define themselves as one religion or another – even if it is just as a generic ‘christian.’ Yet most single people don’t bother actually joining a church and going to services regularly – my WAG is that this is because they’re busy with other things and church is not important enough to them to fit it into the schedule. These non-church-going singles still define themselves as catholic or jewish or ‘christian’ or what have you. So, for these people, finding and joining a church after they marry and have kids is just part of the traditionalizing process.

Secondly, marriage involves compromise – often one parent is more interested in raising the kids in a religion than the other, and the parent to whom it is improtant ‘makes it happen.’ This is the case in my family. My husband was raised Lutheran and wanted the kids to be raised in that faith. I held out until I had done some research into the denomination (I didn’t want them drawn into a hotbed of creation-science believing fundies)and also until I felt they were old enough to understand the concepts involved (without becoming mindlessly indoctrinated). Now, at age 12 and 13, they both go to Sunday school most every Sunday, to church with their dad occasionally, and to church with their dad and me very occasionally. I compromised by letting them go, and my husband compromised by agreeing that if they hate it, or wish to change churches, we will not force them to continue. I further compromised by agreeing to go to services with them sometimes, but I will not join the church or take communion. At the moment, the kids are enjoying the experience, and seem to be getting something out of it. What they are *not[i/] getting out of it, BTW, is a moral education. My husband and I taught them morals from infancy – many years before we ever started taking them to church.

Jess

Full of 'satiable curtiosity

39

Back to the OP…

If the parents feel they cannot supply a moral foundation without putting a religious slant on it, I don’t think they are quite ready to be parents.

If they want to go to church because they believe, however, that is another story.

Yer pal,
Satan

40

Sorry, Satan–could you explain your last post a little–people who can’t divorce morals from religion aren’t ready to be parents?