Breeding and Church Attendence

The BBQ Pit
41

Hmmm… I was dragged to church, Catholic no less, for most of my upbringing. I no longer attend. But if I ever have kids, I think there’s a good chance that I will start going to church with them.

Why? Because I feel that I got some good stuff out of it. In general I despise the Godders because they don’t, IMO, uphold the values that they claim to believe. However, the basics of the Catholic and/or Christian church are sound - Be kind to one another, think about the impacts of your actions, etc. etc. It’s the interpretation that’s gotten fuzzy. I think I got a good intro to the basic values that I strive to attain from the church, and having gotten them, I no longer feel that I need to attend.

I would like my children to get these same values. I think the church is a good way of achieving this. I do feel that the message can be twisted, though, which is why I will attend with my children and we’ll talk about things afterwards.

I also see another strange trend, which I have no explaination for. It seems to me that the most obnoxious and annoying of the born-again in your face idiot Godders are the ones who had absolutely no introduction to religion during their childhood, and suddenly went all out in their late twenties. I have a friend like this - never entered a church in his life, but once he hit 30 or so he became born again and annoying as hell. I’ve seen others do the same. It seems like some introduction to religion as a child tempers this, same as some introduction to alcohol in moderation makes a child less curious when it comes time to experiment with liquor. Make any sense?

42

sj - having read Satan’s post, I am going to agree with him.

Although I don’t presume to put words in his mouth, I will tell you how I interpreted what he posted.

As a mother, if I don’t feel that I have what it takes to be able to raise my son morally, teach him what is good and what is bad, etc. on my own and have to depend on a group of people, e.g. The Church to do it, then it would seem that I’m not all that much of a parent. It is my job to raise my son; not some building down the street with a steeple that gets crowded on Sunday.

Morality (for lack of a better word) is not just about church. Raising someone to be a good human being does not come from 10:30 services.

Now, if you want to raise your child believing in that particular higher power because you truly believe in it, that is another story.

What I’m trying to say (and not doing too well obviously) is that people should bring their children to church for the right reasons. Hypocrisy and/or an unwillingness or inability to teach, raise, and nurture your own children, IMO, isn’t.

Sorry to ramble.

And Satan, if I misunderstood, I apologize.

43

Missy2U:

No, I’d say you pretty much nailed it.

Yer pal,
Satan

44

Thanks–I got confused that you meant morals that were based on religion were not good enough and the had to be based on something else. I’m suffering from a fuzzy thinking day!

It would be nice if people would make a committment to teach their offspring their moral values at home and not just leave it to church. I’ll agree with that. I’m not one for letting my kid swallow anybody’s teachings whole without thinking about it critically–even when it’s ME who’s doing the teaching. That’s one of my goals as a parent–to make sure my child is a critical thinker with enough education to evaluate what people tell her. I wish more people felt like that–especially about religion.

45

Missy2U wrote:

smilingjaws wrote:

I agree and disagree with these quotes. Yes, those people who send their children to church as the sole place to learn morals and ethics are shirking their jobs as parents. However, I would say that these people are in the minority.

My gut feeling is that most people who bring their children to church do so because the church provides a convenient tool to teach the morals and ethics they want their children to learn. It’s much like sending your child to school - you send him/her there because you want them to learn to read and write. Morals and ethics are much more of a personal decision, and a parent has to expend some energy and figure out what particular church teaches the lessons they want their children to learn. But it’s no more shirking parental duty to bring your children to church to learn something about morals than it is to give him/her a copy of “The Chronicles of Narnia” or “<insert Pagan book that teaches Pagan beliefs here>” or “<insert Jewish book that teaches Jewish beliefs here>”.

46

I also see a problem in taking Junior to church if you are not devout because much of the morality in church can conflict even with the most moral parents.

What happens if Junior comes home one day and calls out mom for having a glass of wine at work? Or takes dad on for listening to secular music on the radio?

UNless the parents are truly believers in what is being preached, and can also be there for spiritual guidance (not just moral) when the young’un starts asking questions, I feel that just going to churchfor your kids without truly believing what is being preached has the potential to do more harm than good.

Yer pal,
Satan

47

I believe, Satan, that you’re making the mistake of assuming that all churches are of the born-again disturbing annoying type. There’s plenty out there that aren’t. Even within one denomination, each church has it’s own flavor.

My mother was pretty careful to make it clear that although she went to church every week, she did not necessarily believe in everything that was preached. She encouraged us to think on our own. She believed in a God that was primarily one of love, and most of the Catholic propaganda that I took in agreed with that (yeah, I know, I went to a weird Catholic church). She also believed that sometimes the church went overboard, and that we all had to live our own lives and to think about our actions.

I challenge the idea that in order to get anything good out of a church, you have to believe in everything that is preached, lock, stock and barrel. If you take your child to a political debate where you support the candidate, but don’t necessarily agree with everything that is said, is it wrong? Does it “do more harm than good”? Or does exposing a child to this type of thing and talking afterwards with him about why you agree or disagree with certain points encourage him/her to think and reason through different topics? Why is the church any different than any other organization that expouses a belief?

48

At the risk of being blasted, I am one of those people who intends to take her future children to church. Church was a fun thing for me (Children’s church, bible camp were all fun) and although my faith sometimes waned as I got older, I felt it was always a backbone to some of the best choices I made. Of course parents should take responsibility for teaching their children morals, but who’s to say that it’s wrong to get a little help along the way? My children will always be able to make their own choices (as I did) once they get old enough, but it’s important to me that they understand my faith so they can make that choice from an educated perspective.

49

**

I am quite aware of that. However, if you are going to take your child to ANY church, and you do not actually believe what is being preached, you set yourself up for inconsistancies. Sure, the examples I put forth are rather conservative interpretations of doctrine, but the fact is that every church has it’s own ideas on things, even the more liberal religions, and whether the parent is a) ignorant of these things b) does not agree with them or c) any combination of the above, it can certainly lead to issues.

**

Didn’t mean to interrupt, but that’s my point. “She believed in God.” I am not talking about believers. I am talking about people who are not going to church because they believe (of course, even the most devout practitioners of religion can disagree with how a pastor thinks about something), I am talking about people who do NOT believe, and are merely going to church out of some percieved obligation for a spiritual training that those parents themselves don’t buy into.

**

That wasn’t my point. My point (and I assumed the point of the OP) was about people who do NOT believe, period.

If one believes, and then decides to get back to their church more because of their child, that’s one thing.

Presumably, those parents know about that faith and just fell away from active church attendance, and the kid(s) get them back into the habit. I do not consider this unlike a smoker quitting because he had a kid - making a personal choice for the betterment of his new child.

I am talking about non-believers who want to use a church as a crutch for their own inability to instill a sense of morality in their children, and that is something, I sumbit, that can really screw up a kid.

Look at all of the kids from people who DID claim to be religious, but who didn’t ACT in that manner, and how fucked up they are as adults. This could easily lead to similar results.

Yer pal,
Satan

50

Blim, Satan. We are in agreement.

51

Non-believers aren’t always necessarily using Church as a “crutch to teach moral values”.

Sometimes, I get the urge to attend a church just for the sense of community. When I have children, I may bring them to one just as a great place to meet people, participate in activities, etc. Of course, I’d prefer a secular organization with the same opportunities, but if that’s not available, a nice liberal Christian or UU church will do.

52

Just a teensy follow-up clarification on my rambling post, in response to a point smilingjaws made and Satan expanded on…

The individual experience may illuminate, but in justice to my mom I didn’t explain something. We had been members of that church for years when the thundering denunciation from the pulpit happened. We weren’t constant attendees in church, but yeah, it was our church.

If it matters, it was an urban, upper-middle class Methodist congregation. In other words, it was (generalizing madly) a white bread “accepted thing to do” venue for religion and very prone to many extremes.

Mom wanted us to become more active in church to provide my sister and I a tighter group of friends and support during a rough time. (The irony of this is overwhelming.) And the thundering denunciation had much more to do with social and economic realities in the area than religious doctrine.

Anyway, as the old saying goes, a church isn’t a museum for saints, it’s a hospital for sinners. And one church that failed in one instance can’t be used as an indictment against religion. But I offered the example to illustrate that churches aren’t “instant answers” and morality and faith are real forces other places as well.

Sorry for any confusion my poorly explained example caused.

Veb

53

After reading all these horror stories, I do want to say that church, any church should not treat people in the way you describe. I do attend church–some years more than in other years–because I am a Christian and I enjoy the fellowship and being reminded that I have a ways to go. I don’t go for a “you’re wonderful, never bother to change because God loves you even if you’re a crack-smoking transexual whore who steals money from the poor and digs up graves to get bones to play jackstraws with” But, the circumstances that have been mentioned have been extremely hurtful. Jesus was blunt in his assessment of sinful behavior–but he wasn’t MEAN!
So, please, let me apologise to you for this. But, as V. says, the church isn’t full of saints–and I’m likely to slip and say something stupid or mean too. I just hope you’ll confront me with it and I’ll gladly apoligise and try to do better.