Bricker the troll

[Bricker]

@RTFirefly

This librul would suggest a widespread effort to point out to prospective voters that while the Dems are concerned with things like making sure everyone has health insurance, and won’t lose it to a ‘pre-existing condition’ like acne or bunions the moment they need it for something genuinely serious, the GOP is concerned with…ACORN.

That’s a strawman: the GOP is also concerned about the healthcare issue. Of course, they don’t agree that the healthcare system should be reformed, or at least not in the same way the Democrats believe it should, but it’s not like they have no attention ofr the issue.

A better criticism would be that the GOP hasn’t substantively engaged the healthcare issue, preferring to strawman themselves like “death panels.”

And although this is a rare actual tu quoque, I’ll offer it anyway, because it’s relevant to the behavior in this thread.

Republicans probably can’t win on the issue of healthcare as it’s framed, because it’s a populist appeal: let’s make sure that everyone is covered and prexisting conditions aren’t cause for denials. While there are principled objections to that approach, it sounds good to the average voter. So they offer up scare tactics, half-truths, and outright lies in an effort to scuttle the program.

The Democrats have done the same thing with gun control.

And in this thread, many people have taken a similar tack with ACORN, refusing to acknowledge it has any real, substantive problems… undoubtedly a reaction to the other extreme of the Right accusing ACORN of planning some massive vote fraud conspiracy.

Both behaviors are examples of the same sort of blindness, the same sort of win-at-all-costs mentality.

But why? Consider Frank. He’s certainly liberal in his outlook, but he’s willing to say, “Yes, ACORN has problems, severe problems.” That’s honest. But he’s in a minority, judging by the participants in this thread and the related GD thread.

Meanwhile, here’s a thread six pages long and counting calling me a troll. I was confident it was a completely baseless accusation, but now that I’m hip to the concept of “concern troll,” I’ll allow that this may be a valid criticism. I’m not a huge ACORN fan, because I believe if people can’t be arsed to go register themselves to vote, I don’t think they should be exercising the vote. But that just means I disagree with the priorities of ACORN – I think they’re genuinely sincere and trying to do good work. Even the fools who tried to help Faux Pimp and Whore are probably well-intentioned; they’re just conditioned to advocate for their clients and have developed a blind spot where that advocacy is concerned.

But they need to correct themselves, and any honest observer ought to be able to accept that.

[wonky]

@Bricker

But why? Consider Frank. He’s certainly liberal in his outlook, but he’s willing to say, “Yes, ACORN has problems, severe problems.” That’s honest.

So, someone is only honest if they agree with you.

And you think you’re qualified to fix ACORN’s PR problem?

[Boyo_Jim]

@Bricker

…
Meanwhile, here’s a thread six pages long and counting calling me a troll. …t.

Change your settings to 200 posts per page, and it’s only a page and a half. Much more respectable seeming.

[Lord_Ashtar]

@jsgoddess

So, someone is only honest if they agree with you.

Right, otherwise they’re a troll.

[wonky]

@Boyo_Jim

Change your settings to 200 posts per page, and it’s only a page and a half. Much more respectable seeming.

Much. You need to become an adviser to ACORN and Glenn Beck!

[Bricker]

@jsgoddess

So, someone is only honest if they agree with you.

On this particular point, yes. If someone stoutly maintains that ACORN has no problems, then they’re not being honest.

On other points, reasonable people may disagree. For example, if someone were to disagree with my “if they can’t be arsed to register, they shouldn’t vote” view, that is no hit to their honesty.

Do YOU disagree that ACORN has problems? If nothing else, they have lost their funding. Am I wrong here? Can someone honestly claim ACORN has no problems? What do YOU think?

And you think you’re qualified to fix ACORN’s PR problem?

I have some very basic and simplistic ideas. Which I recognize, and which is why I said above, at least twice, that someone more qualified than I could provide better ideas.

[Euphonious_Polemic]

ACORN has more than a simple PR problem. They have a problem with screaming shit-flinging monkeys who have their own shows and network, and a political machine that has a vested interest in low voter turnout.

[wonky]

@Bricker

Do YOU disagree that ACORN has problems? If nothing else, they have lost their funding. Am I wrong here? Can someone honestly claim ACORN has no problems? What do YOU think?

I think that it honestly doesn’t matter because they’re done.

They definitely have PR problems. They definitely have the wrong enemies.

No one can seem to answer my questions about ACORN compared to other orgs that do the same thing, so there is no context for the accusations.

There is also the problem of a lack of shared goals. My goal is for every eligible citizen of the US to register to vote and then vote. I don’t care what their political party is. I want everyone engaged in the process. Making that happen is going to require work, and it is absolutely legitimate work for the government to have to double-check the efforts of a private organization. Since I feel that it shouldn’t require a private organization at all, I find it immaterial how many false forms there are so long as there are true ones. And since I don’t see numbers or the rates in context while ACORN’s detractors never stop shrieking, it becomes even more difficult to see what exactly people think is wrong other than that they are registering Democrats.

Is there a problem with registering Democrats? You’re making faces about people who can’t be bothered to register, but if they don’t show up to vote *your *team isn’t out anything. If Pluto the Dog fills out a registration card, your team isn’t out anything.

To me, it all bears an incredibly strong resemblance to the town halls, the birthers, the deathers, the dickers, and (on the other side) the truthers. It’s a near-hysteria that has little or nothing to do with facts and everything to do with plain old freaking out.

The pimp videos are hinky. They are a PR issue and perhaps much more, but I’m not basing any judgment of ACORN on them. That leaves the extraneous registrations. The argument there seems to be simply that there are a lot of them, but no explanation of what problems, precisely, those extraneous registrations are causing anyone but ACORN itself. Sure, I’d bet Boards of Elections workers would rather no one ever registered to vote, since it’s nicer to get paid without doing any work. (All of the BoE workers I’ve ever met were very earnest people who really REALLY like it when people vote, but I bet there are some somewhere who don’t.)

I want people registered and I want people voting. I want to win because the most people like my POV, not because people didn’t vote. I will be working at the polls in November because I consider helping the voting process to be one of the best things I can do for this country.

So, you can call me dishonest all you want. It won’t change anything, but be my guest. I’ll still support registering every American–even the dumbasses who vote Republican.

[Euphonious_Polemic]

Originally posted by Scylla in another thread:

ACORN itself has slimed its way into the government in an attempt to wrest more permanent and lasting control to the left.

So, when I hear you complain about Republicans using the “power of the government to secure its power,” I laugh at your naivete to wonder how you can see so clearly out of one eye, but be so blind in the other. What do you think ACORN is doing? What do you think its purpose is?

This is why Bricker’s call to honestly assess ACORN"S problems and address them will not and cannot work. The screamers behind you Bricker? They are convinced that ACORN is an evil plot to wrest democracy from them. They don’t want changes. They want blood. I mean, Scylla somehow thinks that ACORN has somehow “gotten into government” just because they secured some (relatively minor) government grants.

[ElvisL1ves]

So just why is it, Bricker, that you think the issues needing to be discussed here revolve solely around ACORN’s legally-required conduct, and not those of the jabbering mouthpieces trying and succeeding to deter them from doing any job at all? Whose behavior is deplorable? Relevant to democracy?

And, btw, you don’t yet have a grasp of the concept of “concern trolling”, or else you’d see why it’s what you’re doing here. Your concern is not really with ACORN, it’s with keeping people from registering as members of a party you oppose. Your suggestions for improving their conduct are, in fact, suggestions for reducing their effectiveness. They’re self-serving. If put into place, it would be for propping up your party’s claim to represent more than a shrinking minority of people. And I’m sure you’re not stupid enough not to realize that. That is concern trolling. You needn’t continue to pretend your concern is sincere when it’s so transparent.

There’s actually another, broader issue this thread has brought up, Bricker. Well, two, really. One is why you have such a contempt for the law itself in instances where it works against your partisan interests. And the other is why you have such contempt for democracy itself.

[Euphonious_Polemic]

Perhaps some think that the law is merely a tool to be used to get one’s way. If you can debate the finer points of legalese more effectively than your opponent, then you win. And winning is everything.

Some also think, I believe, that democracy is all about whether or not your team wins. By any means possible.

[Klaatu]

@elucidator

“We are not angry, just very, very disappointed.”

Seconded, sort of, with a suggestion that the charge of troll be amended. There are a few real honest-to-Og trolls here, lumping Bricker amongst them is putting the Geico gecko up with Godzilla.

I won’t snip your second paragraph, and have no interest in it, but your first sounds like a sig line for those who voted for Obama…

[elucidator]

Well, it would have been really cool if he were more lefty, but he isn’t, and we knew that. We were mostly into beating the living snot out of the Republicans, and the joy of that endures and sustains.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

Simply keeping Sarah Palin away from sniffing distance of the Oval Office is already tantamount to saving the universe. From here on out, he’s just resting on his laurels, as far as I’m concerned.

[dropzone]

@ElvisL1ves

So just why is it, Bricker, that you think the issues needing to be discussed here revolve solely around ACORN’s legally-required conduct, and not those of the jabbering mouthpieces trying and succeeding to deter them from doing any job at all? Whose behavior is deplorable? Relevant to democracy?

I love lawyers. I come from a family of lawyers and judges. I also know that they adopt whatever viewpoint best serves their clients. Bricker’s job was, as my former public defender and prosecutor brother would describe, “defending the guilty” vs “prosecuting the innocent,” Bricker’s past would play well into his present preference.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

For the record, I don’t thinkBricker’s a troll either. I don’t even think he’s an asshole. I think he just tries a lot of angles, but does so in a semi-detached sort of way – “let’s try this theory of the case and see where it goes.” He can be full of shit sometimes (how many of us can say we never are), but I’ve never felt like he was just trying to STIR shit.

I think I’d probably like him if I met him at a Dopefest or something.

[dropzone]

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

For the record, I don’t thinkBricker’s a troll either. I don’t even think he’s an asshole. I think he just tries a lot of angles, but does so in a semi-detached sort of way – “let’s try this theory of the case and see where it goes.” He can be full of shit sometimes (how many of us can say we never are), but I’ve never felt like he was just trying to STIR shit.

I can see it. I play that game with lesser lights, though not here becaus that’s [del]trolling[/del] frowned on.

I think I’d probably like him if I met him at a Dopefest or something.

Yeah, that’s probably true, too, but he’s buying. And not house brands.

[elucidator]

I’ll drink with a lawyer if they’re buying. I can be very accepting, and generous with my company. And after the first three, well drinks are as good as any.

[Bricker]

@Bricker

How would this advice harm the recipient?

@Ludovic

I hear jail’s pretty bad these days.

My proposal was for Congress to amend the law to permit ACORN to do basic QA work on the registrations they submit. How does that involve jail time for anyone?

[RTFirefly]

@Bricker

That’s a strawman: the GOP is also concerned about the healthcare issue. Of course, they don’t agree that the healthcare system should be reformed, or at least not in the same way the Democrats believe it should, but it’s not like they have no attention ofr the issue.

A better criticism would be that the GOP hasn’t substantively engaged the healthcare issue, preferring to strawman themselves like “death panels.”

To paraphrase Jesus, where your effort is, there will your heart be also. Their effort’s in stuff like ACORN and death panels.

Occam’s Razor would suggest that perhaps they haven’t substantively engaged the health care issue because they don’t want to.

Republicans probably can’t win on the issue of healthcare as it’s framed, because it’s a populist appeal: let’s make sure that everyone is covered and prexisting conditions aren’t cause for denials. While there are principled objections to that approach, it sounds good to the average voter. So they offer up scare tactics, half-truths, and outright lies in an effort to scuttle the program.

So rather than yield to the will of the people on this issue, or to try to change popular opinion by honest means, they monkeywrench.

The Democrats have done the same thing with gun control.

Yeah, but you’ve got to reach back a ways for that. “The Democrats” have pretty much abandoned that issue.

Not that that’s stopped Republicans from scaring each other with stories about how Obama’s going to take away their guns. Not like there’s even an excuse for that.

Or how the Obama Administration was going to reinstate the Fairness Doctrine to knock the purveyors of stories like that off the radio. Even George F. Will was pushing that story. Repeatedly.

And in this thread, many people have taken a similar tack with ACORN, refusing to acknowledge it has any real, substantive problems… undoubtedly a reaction to the other extreme of the Right accusing ACORN of planning some massive vote fraud conspiracy.

No, it’s just that the problems don’t appear to rate anything like the attention they’ve garnered. In the annals of bad behavior by Federal contractors, it’s hard to see how this cracks the top 500 just for this decade alone.

Both behaviors are examples of the same sort of blindness, the same sort of win-at-all-costs mentality.

No. There ain’t no equivalence here. On the one side, you have a party lying to the American public, repeatedly and extravagantly, about one of the major issues off our time - and about a host of made-up ones, too.

On the other, you have some at best middlin’ problems with an organization that’s gotten some pretty small-potatoes government contracts. Nobody electrocuted in showers, or anything like that.

There are hundreds of issues that seem to come with stronger reasons to pay attention to them, and I’ve only got so much attention to spend.