No one has said this. The cyclist that poses the greatest single threat to pedestrians does not exist. Deal with it.
Your head is hurting? Straw does that to me too.
Don’t backpedal (fnarr fnarr, I slay me). You did not say that. You said: “The cyclists being pitted are the non-law abiding ones that (allegedly) are a real danger to pedestrians. They don’t exist.”
Not the "greatest danger. “A real” danger. That’s what you said.
Have some self-respect, people. Suspending reality gets tiring after a bit, y’know?
Now I am outta here. Off to bed.
You cut the bit out of the quote where I made it clear that I was referring to the cyclists from the OP. Those cyclists are the ones that pose the greatest danger.
Further, you have no evidence that cyclists are a real danger to pedestrians. The only actual cite produced suggests they are a trivial danger, compared to any other relevant consideration. You tell us to suspend reality, but I’m not the one spouting impressions and prejudice while doing my best to ignore actual data: that’d be you.
Furthermore, only The Loaded “Strawman” Dog, could read a statement that cyclists posed no real danger as a statement that no cyclist anywhere ever has done anything wrong.
Your post was crap.
Or maybe, just maybe, the OP’s experience is different from the statistics at large.
And I’ll back that opinion up, I’ve almost been hit by cyclists far more often than I’ve almost been hit by cars. Of course, a cyclist hitting me likely won’t kill me like a car will, but that doesn’t change the fact that on a day-to-day basis, cyclists are posing far more of a hazard to me than the cars.
You keep bringing up these fatality numbers like the mean anything. Of course a bike isn’t going to kill me and a car will. So fucking what? If I get hit by a bike (I don’t, just an example) every day, I’m going to have it out for bikers since it’s a constant irritation, unlike getting hit with a car which is a blue-moon event.
On my day-to-day pedestrian journey, the fact is that a bike is a bigger hazard than a motorist for me. Not bigger in the sense that I’m in danger of being killed by one, but bigger in the sense that I’ve had far more close calls with them than with cars.
Yeah, maybe. Maybe his/her experience of cyclist/pedestrian danger is about 100 times the norm. Doesn’t seem likely though, does it?
What a hoot! You want to think about that a bit more? You are actually trying to argue that something that almost hits you is more dangerous than something that actually does hit you 200 times more often? Pffft.
Well actually, no. The figure of 0.6% is derived from statistics covering all accidents, from fatal to slight injury.
Go back and read the OP. There’s no mention of being hit at all. There’s just a perceived danger which is out of all proportion to anything real.
Nor is the OP concerned about irritation. It’s danger, danger danger. Allegedly
Mmm. So in other words you are more concerned about something you are scared might happen because it seems to be close to happening (though it doesn’t) than something that doesn’t seem close to happening but which in fact statistics prove happens 200 times more often. Human nature, sure, but not rational.
Fair enough, but the statistics are still meaningless as to what is a hazard to me personally on a day to day basis. What percentage of bicycle accidents actually get reported unless they cause significant injury? Probably the same percentage as pedestrians who get a slight tap from a bumper at a crosswalk: zero.
I read the OP. And I agree with it. Bikes are more of a day-to-day hazard than pedestrians in my experience. Moreover, they are a hazard beyond their representation on the streets and sidewalks. How many more cars are there than bikers? Yet, I’ve been either hit or nearly hit by far more cyclists than cars. Indicates to me that there’s a greater concentration of asshole cyclists than asshole motorists.
Sure, it’s rational. Bikes have come closer to hitting me more often than cars. It’s just how it is. I’m sorry that you’re apparently to stupid to comprehend that - or maybe just too desperate to defend your asshole cyclist compatriots and demonize car drivers.
And furthermore, Neurotik, when OBJECTIVE studies are done of how cyclists behave around pedestrians then they do not confirm the subjective experience that many of their critics in this thread describe.
We all tend to be irrational and unreliable observers of our own experiences. At least Steve Wright did some actual counting, but I guess infringement is easier to count than courtesy.
Jeez folks, this is not about facts or reality, it is about fear.
Facts about flying safety per mile does nothing for the fearful flyer… IMO and from my antidotal evidence.
If a persons never goes near a road but is on a campus where bicyclist are a constant source of perceived danger … guess what… IMO and from my antidotal evidence.
Less see, cars that come close to bicycles on a road are scary … IMO and from my antidotal evidence.
Less see, cars that come close to pedestrians on a road are scary … IMO and from my antidotal evidence.
Most pedestrians are not on the road.
Most likely scary thing to pedestrians on walkways is a bicycle coming fast and close… IMO and from my antidotal evidence.
Most likely vehicle to run a red light with a pedestrian in the cross walk is a bicycle …IMO and from my antidotal evidence.
Pit threads about a fear have to be reasonable?.. Not IMO and from my antidotal evidence.
*::: What scares you does not scare me because I don’t do what you do, or, have not had the experiences you have, or I only go with facts, I have no fears at all, or, I’m just really really tough and smart, or If I don’t think your fear is my fear I’m going to be inslutting about it…
Downtown NYC, London, etc. Is a bit different than 99% of the rest of the world… *But I refuse to take that into consideration because that might mean the OP MIGHT have more of a reason to be fearful or irritated about his particular fear and post a pit thread about it…
YMMV
Preview is my friend… Maybe I need more fear of ridicule…
Or in other words, the statistics don’t suit me so I’m ignoring them. They exactly precisely represent to you what your risk is. Near enough to zip.
As for the statistics being skewed, you said it. They probably underreport trivial bike hits just as much as trivial car hits.
The OP is not about this. Read the conclusion. The conclusion is that cyclists are a bigger hazard. Not that they are a lesser hazard but the hazard they pose is disproportionate to the number of cyclists. Gloss the OP all you want to try to convert it to something factual, it’s crap. Deal.
I’m too stupid to understand that something that doesn’t happen is more dangerous than something that does?
Let me try to illustrate how utterly stupid what you are saying is. Imagine two groups of 200 people. I shoot at and injure, kill and maim the whole of one group. I shoot near everyone in the other group, but only actually injure one of them.
Which is the more dangerous group to be in? Take your time.
Yeah, sure Gus’n’spot. And if the OP had said “I am fearful of cyclists, I know I shouldn’t be but I am”, then I’d be all sympathy. But the OP doesn’t.
Furthermore, your discussion of subjective experiences is all very well, but we are not sheep and this is the Dope. If you can’t stand the facts, get out of the kitchen.
We are supposed to be 21 C humans. I would be very disappointed with myself if I ranted against someone for doing something otherwise reasonable but of which I have an irrational fear.
The OP had specific gripes:
"At least the other forms of transport show a modicum of respect for the highway code, even if only in passing, but the amount of cyclists that don’t stop at traffic lights and pedestrian crossings is amazing." This is true. It may not actually result in people getting hurt, but many cyclists do ignore lights and pedestrian crossings. In the UK the green man of the crossing is sacrosanct - there’s no left on a red, it supposed to mean it’s SAFE to cross. For fast people, slow people, children, the blind, the deaf.
"I’ve seen numerous cyclists using pedestrianised zones that clearly state that they are not for any form of wheeled vehicle. Also true. See it every weekend. The pedestrian zones in Aberdeen have bike racks within them. I will sometimes cycle to these bike racks at walking speed, if there’s not too many people about, otherwise I dismount and wheel it. But plenty of cyclists weave through the peds at full tilt. I’ve never seen anyone actually get hit but that’s not the point; it sets people on edge, makes them uncomfortable in a space where they should be able to relax. Same thing as people playing ball games in a pedestrianised area - not enormously hazardous, just irritating.
**So to all British Cyclists, stop complaining about how bad it is to cycle on our roads, try walking, it’s much more dangerous, and cyclists are the reason.**This is bullshit of course. But it doesn’t invalidate the fact that cyclists ignoring traffic rules and using pavements/pedestrian zones are a very visible, if largely harmless, nuisance. Like litter, it’s a problem that would go away if people made the tiniest, fractional individual efforts to fix it.
Who are the utter dolts complaining about being stuck behind cyclists at ten mph ?
What kind of argument is that ?
For your information folks, the highway code quite clearly states that overtaking must only be carried out when it is safe to do so, and just because an ‘obstruction’ happens to be a cyclist travelling slowly does not give the motorist a licence to be a shithead.
Let’s try another tack on this, if the obstruction were a milk float, would you then be complaining about it being in the way ?
…or an artic wagon ?
…or a rider on horseback - sometimes yes drivers will try, but don’t like theidea of their car being damaged by up to half a ton of unpredictable muscle.
It’s like this, there is no point in being impatient when being stuck behind a cyclist, the rules say that you overtake when safe, and it doesn’t matter what the obstruction is, you’d simply be stuck behind any other slow moving traffic and you’d have to wait it out, so why single out the cyclist, at least show some measure of consistancy and complain about other slow moving road based obstacles - however I woud imagine that by doing so you would come across as a boorish impatient lout.
I’m with Boo Boo Foo when I was racing and riding, I’d be well away from the city, long before you lazy arsehole motorists were out of bed, and you wouldn’t see me except for perhaps the last couple of miles of my ride, yet somehow I get tarred with the very broad brush painted by the OP, I fucking resent that from the inferior motoring species.
In the UK, the majority of rush hour driving is less than five miles, but motorists are simply too lazy to propel their lazy lardarses for a total of 20 minutes twice a day.(and it would be a lot less than that if they actually became fit)
You motorists are not part of the problem, you are the problem, why do you think we have congestion charging ? speed cameras ? insurance ? (actually as a cyclist I do carry insurance but that’s for my benefit - mainly)
The poor inconsiderate driving habits of half asleep slow witted dumb drivers are what push cyclists off the road, and illegally onto footpaths.
What are pedestrians for the most part ?
Most pedestrians are car drivers, and having spent their commute bullying, cutting up, red light running, speeding and flipping one another the bird, they get out of their shiny shitboxes and decide that somehow none of the bad Karma they make will come back at them.
What goes around comes around, the idiot cyclist runs the risk of death and serious injury, and the idiot motorist complains about everything except their own poor behaviour, but wonders why cyclists are wound up enough to fuck them right off.
Cyclists have a real incentive to behave, just because you don’t see those who do so, does not mean they do not exist, you just project you lazy ignorant ill researched and biased opinions onto anything and anyone.
If it were not cyclists you complain about, its people who don’t step aside when you walk down the street, or anything that delays or inconveniences you in the slightest, its the classic motorist attitude, so many of them carry arseholeness
on to being a pedestrian.
There’s some huge sweeping generalisations there, casdave.
I’ve never driven a car. I still get royally hacked off with irresponsible cyclists nearly knocking me off my feet as they shoot through red lights.
And I don’t understand why you, as a cyclist, don’t get just as pissed off with them. Surely, they are the reasons that the responsible cyclists get a bad name?
The reason cyclists get a bad name is that folk such as yourself generalise and extend your experience of cyclists to cover all cyclists.
I do not condone their behaviour, but I see lots of motorists behave far worse, all I’m doing is showing you how the arguments made in the OP would appear when applied in the same manner to all motorists.
I do think motorists as a group are generally physically lazy and selfish, they complain about traffic jams, whilst neglecting to mention their own vehicle, they want other cars off the road, but will not commit to actually propelling themselves around, they tell us how terrible the urban environment is, but won’t travel on buses, trains, walk or cycle, even when these are viable alternatives, they alwasy find some part of their lives that would make public transport imposasible, and then extend it to the whole of their lives.
I have a feeling that those badly behaved cyclists are not what I would regard as cyclists in the way that an olyimpic swimmer wouldn’t regard the 3 foot paddling pool hooligan as anything but a hooligan.
It’s worth noting that there are plenty of piss poor pedestrains who seem to think they have the right to cross the road in front of the cyclist who they assume can easily go around them, it’s happened to me many many times.
The worst pedestrians seem to be in places where cars are restricted, and there are lots of pedestrian areas, the ignorant pedestrian then extends their areas to incude trafficked routes as well.
Are all pedestrians stupid, nope, but if I were to take the OPs analogy, then I would have to state that they are, based on that persons biased and inaccurate assumptions.
I dislike the attitude of those with an engine toward cyclists, bike riders, horses.
We have the right to be there, but you wouldn’t know it from the doltish posts made here.
The hype about the risk of injury from cyclists is unbelievable, from a so-called select group of intelligent posters not being able to accept from nationally collated figures from reputable sources, the risks cyclist actually pose to other traffic and pedestrians is miniscule, especially when compared to car drivers, and yet its the cyclist getting the stick - that talks to me of ignorant bias.
Tell you what, try count the number of bad car driving habits you observe in a 24 hour period, look at lack of seatbelts, mobile phone use, tailgating, doing other tasks while driving, speeding, not indicating, red light/amber light dodging, conveniently not seeing folk waiting at zebra crossings etc etc
Please count them up, and report back on the numbers, you will get a nasty surprise, I can assure you.
As an 8,000+ mile/year rider as well as an often pedestrian and almost daily driver, all of you saying that cyclists are the most irresponsible class of people in motion, I say go get yourself bent. You don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about because I can assure you that any individual with any respect for their own life will take considerably more care in traffic on a bicycle than when surrounded by 2,000 pounds of steel.
Daily, I deal with stupid or inconsiderate drivers making sudden left turns right in front of or even into me, underestimating or not even bothering to gauge my speed and pulling out in front of me, or brushing right by me without even bothering to use up the other two feet in their lane provided by the good folks over at the Colorado Department of Transportation. I could likely write a pit-thread for every single day of moderately long training that has an equal amount of merit than any other traffic-whining pit-thread. But I hold back because there are idiots, assholes, nice people, careful people, and a whole spectrum of human personalities are represented, just as in any other mode of transit.
Statistics on fatalities seem to back up our side that automotive drivers are usually at fault in fatal accidents involving cars and bicycles. So, really, this is just uninformed mouthing off about a minor annoyance in a message board.
So, a few final points:
First, how much time have you ever actually been delayed by a cyclist? People get all upset about having to pass a cyclist more than once, but what does that say about your actual speed: you haven’t really lost any time at all.
Second, if these people weren’t on bikes, they’d be in cars. Just like there are some assholes on bikes, there are assholes in cars too, and switching the mode of transit isn’t going to make you any safer or get you to your destination any faster.
Third, none of these people want to inconvenience you or get themselves or anyone else hurt. If they decide to take an entire lane over a bridge or construction zone, understand why and just chill out for a few seconds. You’ll likely be delayed by 20 seconds at most, and even then you’ll probably end up behind some dump truck later down the road so that you won’t lose any time at all.
Please, be considerate in your cars, don’t honk unless it’s for a safety reason or else a light tap if someone’s riding two-abreast and doesn’t notice you, remember that driving isn’t a competition, and I’ll do my best to ride as safely and considerately as possible and cause the least possible delays. We’ll all benefit from the lower levels of traffic, reduced greenhouse emissions, and having to stare at one less flabby ass.
Thanks,
threemae
In the course of two fairly short walks (to and from the bus station - let me repeat, I am not and never have been a motorist, I walk everywhere or take public transport), I saw -
- Six cyclists turning without giving hand signals.
- One cyclist, not turning, who couldn’t give hand signals, at least not without spilling his coffee.
- One cyclist mounting the pavement, at speed, without giving any indication of his intentions
- One cyclist completely stationary in the middle of the road, ignoring the car patiently waiting to get past him, as he chatted with a mate.
- One cyclist giving a clear and unambiguous turning signal, but I have to take a few marks off her, on account of she was sailing blithely through a red light at a crowded three-way intersection at the time …
I’d say this was a more or less typical day. Hazard? Maybe, maybe not. Thundering bloody nuisance? Absolutely.
And, for heaven’s sake, a MINORITY.
If you are not standing where I’m turning, you won’t get a hand signal, were those six cyclists in a position to hit pedestrians I wonder ?
Actually, how many of those seen in total were in a postion to harm pedestrians ?
Oxford is a particular problem, and is pretty near unique in the way roads have been closed off to all traffic including cyclists.
The alternative correct routes for cyclists go the long way around, IIRC and there was some controversy about this.
It was argued that putting in cycle routes that kept cyclists aways from traffic and pedestrains would be ‘a good thing’ but the council just didn’t want to know.
Why is it that other countries in Europe somehow can find ways to provide decent public transport, decent cycle routes and decent fottpaths, and almost banishing cars and we in the UK cannot?
Why are cyclists in Oxford taking the routes they do ? Could it be that appropriate cycle routes are not available ?
Town planners like to have things looking neat and tidy on a map, however, people are not so neat and tidy, they want to cross open space, not follow tortuous routes around edges, these are called ‘desire lines’.
I personally tend to get off my bike, however, if it means walking a considerable distance in plated cycle shoes - which are very impractical for walking, then ride I shall.
Perhaps those cyclists don’t have genuinely practical routes, the marked out routes provded by town planners are notoriously poor in both construction, and route, they hardly ever go where people actually want to go.