Brits: Your feelings and impressions towards your late Empire, please

Sure, the Empire definitely had blood on its hands. (The book I’m recommending is a sympathetic but not uncritical portrayal of the Empire, and anyways I’ve read enough in other places to fill in the blanks where I see them.) If you can be so bold as to speak for your whole country, is the violence the British commited in Southern Africa generally thought to outweigh the positive aspects of its legacy? How does the average South African view the British these days? Is there a big split along racial lines?

What’s the word on Cecil Rhodes in South Africa today? Villain, hero, in between?

I never said they were but I did say that they werent mass murder institutions.

I find it ironic that the Boers who are so terribly upset about the English camps apparently even to this day ;had such a large amount of supporters for Nazi Germany,whose camps not only werent holiday camps but actually systematically and intentionally murdered millions of men ,women and children(quite a large number from the Boers original homeland),that there was a very real possibility of S.Africa staying out of the war.

Of course the continuing resentment against Britain by those whos mindsets are still stuck around the turn of the last century could well be due to the lack of frills in the camps or ,it could be the apparent sense of unfairness of a people who fought very skilfully and bravely against Britain and who by rights should have emerged victorious but ultimately were the losers.

Either way I think it slightly absurd that there are those who still feel sorry for themselves about what is now not even recent history.

Britain was ,in a period much closer to the present era (though it is still history)heavily bombed by the germans with the result that there was a very heavy total of civilians killed ranging from infants through the entire age range and for both sexes.

Personally I have never come across any survivors from that era who hold some sort of hatred against the germans today for what happened back then ,maybe there are some I dont know ,but there cant be huge numbers if there are for them to be so non noticeable.

The past is a foreign country they do things differently there

[QUOTE=Rodgers01]
Sure, the Empire definitely had blood on its hands. /QUOTE]

Is there any nation on earth at that time ,large ,small,colonial or other that anyone can think of that didnt have blood on its hands?

As to attitudes to Commonwealth citizens in the u.k.and this is my personal opinion only,Aussies,Kiwis,West Indians,Maltese,Gibraltarians,anyone from the Indian subcontinent and to a degree Zimbabweans are not really considered as being foreigners ,Canadians are considered to be slightly foreign and most other countries peoples to be a bit more foreign but are not true aliens as in the sense that the French are felt to be.

Nope! Not that I’m aware of anyways. (And Britain was a lot better than some.) I just didn’t want to seem to be blindly romanticizing or whitewashing things.

Interesting. Why do you feel that Canadians are more foreign than people from places as diverse as Australia, the West Indies, and the Indian Subcontinent? Because many of them speak French? Or because most of them are so culturally similar to the (non-Commonwealth) US?

I’m not sure about the cited existing native Tasmanians - they sound more like revivalists to me, and remind me a lot of the local Khoi-San revival groups. AFAIK, indigenous Tasmanian culture ended with Truganini

As to the Boer War concentration camps - it was specifically the charge that they were innocuous that I was objecting to. Like I said, they weren’t intentionally death camps, but they worked out that way for a large number of the incarcerated.

Rodgers01, I don’t presume to speak for everyone, but in my experience, most South Africans arer glad we were part of the Empire. Hell, they were mostly killing Boers in the A_B War, so most South Africans couldn’t give a damn. As for other battles, I know Zulus who are really proud that they managed to defeat the Redcoats in battle. They don’t hold much resentment for their eventual defeat, either. Hell, there’s a tribe that still wears tartan kilts as “traditional” garb because they had so much admiration for the Highlanders they faced. I think in general, most view the Imperial days as a better time than the Apartheid years, except for some die-hard Boers. It’s not just a racial split, because there’s a substantial British White component. I can tell you that the descendants of those people were all for the Empire.

A good indication of how we feel about the Empire? When offered a chance to rejoin the Commonwealth post-apartheid, we eagerly accepted.

Cecil John Rhodes, now -as I type this, I can look out at Rhodes Memorial on the slopes of Devil’s Peak. Cape Town and my alma mater UCT are full of signs of his largesse. In Zimbabwe they may feel different, but here he’s not reviled. I have read up about him, though - In some ways a great man, but hell, not a nice man. Still, no-one’s suggested we tear the monument down.

In other words, you’re asking whether “the rest of the british ex-colonies (Commonwealth or not, but excluding the US)” see England as “the mother country”? And whether the Brits see their ex-colonies as “you know, they actually speak English there! Nice when you go visit”, as “they would never have left their mud huts without our help”, as “we should never have gone, we’re so bad, woe are us”?

Well, I’m looking for an insight into the feelings between a group of countries that have an interesting historical/cultural/sociological relationship, whatever those feelings may be – how crude or sophisticated, positive or negative the response is up to you.

One word.

Cricket. :smiley:

Late? I’m still living in it! :stuck_out_tongue:

Would I swap Northern Ireland for a more peaceful Ireland that was one all along. It probably wouldn’t have emerged any worse off than other Western nations, so I could expect a decent standard of living without a bloody history.

As for the rest of the Empire, their mileage may vary :slight_smile:

I wouldn’t want speak for any British person or any other NZer but on my mothers side my grandmother was a first generation Kiwi and my grandfather was a 3rd generation Kiwi, when I went off on my Big O.E (Overseas Experience…to those who don’t speak the lingo) my grandmother said “oh you will be going home”. I was offended ‘home’ to me is NZ but after visiting Britain (for almost 2 years…Kiwis do that!) I was slightly less offended.

I had an awesome time and felt a little more connected with my roots , there was Cricket, Rugby and Pubs. There was a similar sense of humour (and spelling) BUT I’m a Kiwi through and through. It just didn’t feel like home.

Britain had an Empire that spread everywhere BUT it’s people are not British anymore. Aussies are Aussies, Kiwis are Kiwis, Indians have always been Indians etc

The British Empire did dreadful things and wonderful things.

I’m just glad to be a Kiwi.

Y’know, you really should get treatment for that. :smiley:

My experiences are the complete opposite of yours- I always felt that the UK was where my roots were, and were as much “Home” as New Zealand. You have to remember, I’d grown up listening to “The Goon Show” (courtesy of my Dad), watching “The Goodies”, “Monty Python’s Flying Circus”, “It Ain’t Half Hot, Mum”, “DangerMouse”, “Grange Hill”, “The Bill”… you get the idea.

Channel One was nicknamed “BBC South” for years because of all the British TV programming they ran, interestingly. Anyway, where was I? Oh, yes, The UK feeling like “Home”. I visited the UK for the first time in 1996, and was immediately subjected to a sense that this was, at some level, where I belonged. It may have had something to do with all the British TV I watched as a kid (and still watch now!), but I certainly do feel connected to Britain on some kind of fundamental level that I can’t explain.

No argument here- I just wish I was around when it was at its height.
I reckon there’d be a country in Africa named after me, maybe a statue of me somewhere (Sir Martini Enfield KCE, Discoverer of Greater Martiniland, Explorer, Millionaire Playboy, and Minister for Exotic Hats & Collectible Firearms), and, of course, entire chapters devoted to my exploits in all the history books. :smiley:

I’m glad I was born in NZ, but I’m not excessively proud of the fact I’m an NZer (I don’t think of myself as a Kiwi)- I’ve found a lot of the NZers on holiday here to be embarrassing, more than anything- but then, I think most of us think that fellow nationals on holiday are embarrassing. That’s a topic for another thread, though…

Firstly you should look up the word ‘usually’ in a dictionary. :rolleyes:
Here is a sentence with it in:

The British usually left gracefully when asked.

Next you mention ‘freedom fighters’, who of course can easily be terrorists, depending on their actions.
EOKA for example:

the EOKA also targeted civilian installations on the island as well as assassinating pro-British Cypriots, informants, Progressive Party of Working People (a communist organisation), Taksim (Turkish Cypriot supporters of partition), and members of the Turkish Cypriot insurgent organisation, the Turkish Resistance Organization.

Attacking civilians makes them a terrorist organisation in my book and puts your claim into perspective.

Finally you can certainly argue that Britain did badly in handing over Cyprus. Not in your inflammatory language, but using historical evidence.
However when you consider how Greece and Turkey behaved, you may reconsider your rhetoric about Britain:

Turkish forces subsequently moved from the previous cease-fire lines to gain control of 37% of the island’s territory. During the invasion, 200,000 Greek Cypriots [8] were displaced from their home land. While this was happening, the entire Turkish Cypriot male population of Tokhni was massacred by Greek Cypriot paramilitaries in reprisal for the landings. Further mass graves were uncovered in Aloa, Sandalaris and Maratha. [9] As of today, there are still 1,468 Greek Cypriots and 502 Turkish Cypriots unaccounted for as well as over 150,000 Greek Cypriot refugees and over 60,000 Turkish Cypriot displaced persons [10]. The events of the summer of 1974 have dominated Cypriot politics ever since and have been a major point of contention between Greek and Turkish Cypriots, as well as Greece and Turkey.

People here in Israel are generally positive about our Imperial past. At best, we tern to think of them as benefectors, at worst, as honorable enemies. They certainly did a lot forn this country: paving roads, digging harbors, setting up industry. More than that, they helped set this nation up - or allowed us to set it up - as an independent, self sufficient state. Sure, things got pretty dicey at times (downtown Tel Aviv is littered with plaques commemorating battles between British and Jewish forces) but all in all, it could have been much worse, and it would have been much worse with any other nation in charge.

I think that in the post-war years, the matter of the British leaving gracefully comes down to the fact that the British parliament was more willing to accept the practical reality of the situation more so than their contemporaries in, say, France. The reality was that they just couldn’t manage it any more when people were starving at home, and the public wasn’t going to be keen on launching into a string of other wars trying to fend off the inevitable.

As for the effect of the Empire, I can take two stances: one from being Canadian, and the other from being a student studying the decolonisation period.

As a Canadian, the Empire generally seems to have been a good thing. It established a common cultural ground for countries around the world. English is the lingua franca of business and politics around the world, and while any other language would work equally well, the double whammy of the British Empire followed by the United States’ leading role in world politics and economics established english in that role on a scale that no other culture has really managed before. What’s more, the global economy really depends on that. Without a common language, it’s a lot more difficult to do business on a cross-cultural scale.

The infrastructure improvements bankrolled by the Empire have already been mentioned, and that’s no small consideraton either. Rule of law, also mentioned, is a big one as well. I wouldn’t go so far as to say that every region the British colonised lacked it beforehand, though, but British rule did standardise things, and in doing so I would guess that it made it easier to enact International Law and treaties that could be inclusive of non-European nations (At least in the case of Commonwealth countries).

Culturally though, I don’t know if it was so great. The British built railroads, sure, but that, and everything else they did in their colonies, were pretty much all to facilitate the extraction of wealth from those regions. All the European countries that had empires did this, but the British were cagey. They didn’t send over hordes of their own people to manage things, but preferred to play the locals off each other to largely rule themselves, and in the process set up an infrastructure that extracted the resources, turned them into something salable, and got them to the ports.

They taught the locals that if they wanted to better themselves, they needed to become more like the British; live like Brits, go to British schools, work to make Britain great (and rich). They created a middle class that aspired to be British. A lot of the nationalist movements tried to reverse that, but that attitude still lingers, and it’s really created a disconnnect from local traditions that people are still adjusting to, often in pretty destructive ways. (The massive emphasis on Hindu identity in India since partition, for example. Once upon a time, India was a pretty well-integrated society, but racial riots of one kind or another have flared up every decade or so since independence).

What’s more, IMHO the prevalence of tin-pot dictators can be attributed in large part to colonization. If you set up a puppet government to funnel resources out of a country, what happens when you pull out and leave all the tools behind? The few in power can use the same infrastructure to continue to funnel resources to fatten their own wallets without the colonial oversight. In the same vein, being a colony or part of an empire can lead to a whole culture of political rule which is grossly irresponsible towards the local subjects that even revolution can’t seem to shake.

The British didn’t play fair, either. I’ve wondered in the past if the current U.S. paranoia about the international drug trade could be due in part to having seen it actively used as a means to destabilize a whole economy in China during the 19th century. Those kind of things can take generations to recover from, and it’s only in my lifetime that that recovery has started to pick up speed in China. And while the effect of individual massacres and atrocities shouldn’t be understated, IMHO the effect of moulding entire cultures into for-profit ventures for the benefit of a very select few has had a far worse impact in the longer term.

So, taken all together, does it come out net positive or negative? Honestly, I think it’s still too early to tell. Until at least India and China can be definitively termed first-world countries on par with Europe or North America (as they really should be, given their history and culture prior to European influence), I’ll have to say negative.

Just to add a disclaimer to my above post, I’m not suggesting that the British Empire is solely responsible for all the problems I listed that Imperialism has caused for the non-Western world. In particularly desirable regions the British merely capitalised on a centuries-old process of softening up by Portugese, Spanish, Dutch, French, and even Italians, and the cohesiveness that Britain brought to the table is the greatest positive that its legacy has left. But to date, I still think they took more from those regions than they left in return, so the balance doesn’t weigh in the Empire’s favour.

I’m guessing it is because Canadians (I’m one) are so culturally similar to the US. Except for our systems of law and government and their traditional trappings, very little of our British heritage seems to remain, at least as far as the average Canadian perceives it in daily life. Like Americans, for example, we don’t play cricket, soccer is popular for children to play but not for adults to watch, and rugby grew into our variant of American football. And unlike many former colonies, we drive the same cars as Americans do, on the right-hand side of the road, just like Americans, and we’re similarly puzzled by driving on the left and the unfamiliar road signs in the UK. Finally, to British ears, we undoubtedly sound the same. For the most part, English-speaking Canadians have the same accent as many Americans (note to those who would throw an “aboot” in here: I’m speaking of how the rest of the world hears us; we can discuss the nuances they’d miss at another time). These are simple little examples, and there are many more, but they do demonstrate some of what sets Canada farther from the UK and closer to the US than other Commonwealth countries seem to be.

It is nice to see the Queen on our money; and we do put “zed” at the end of the alphabet, as a recent thread attested, but let’s face it–for a nation that was once British, we’re really more American than anything else. To the rest of the world, anyway. And if the people of the UK do see Americans as foreign, and a Canadian as just a more northerly American, then it would be reasonable for the UKers to see us as more foreign to them than the rest of the members of the Commonwealth.

As for what the OP is looking for, I don’t find the Commonwealth to be much use any more. It would be one thing if it had a practical use somehow: to go to the head of the line at UK Customs when visiting, or the ability to immigrate freely among Commonwealth members at any time, or lower/no tariffs on trade goods moving between Commonwealth members. Heck, I always needed a passport to go to the UK, but until recently, I never needed one for the US. It was easier to go to the US (a non-Commonwealth country) than it was to what is supposed to be our Mother Country.

With all the Filipinos in America and the huge backlog* of visas wanting to come to the US, I’d say the Philippines don’t harbor much hatred for us.

I read somewhere that the Philippines were one of the few Asian colonies to continue resisting the Japanese in WW2.

*This site says 12 years, but I don’t know of any relatives that have been waiting less than 17 years.

Half-British Kiwi here. Without the British Empire (and that set of Aussie prison colonies across the Ditch called the Tasman Sea) there wouldn’t have been a New Zealand the way it is today, and I wouldn’t be here typing this somewhere in that most English of NZ cities, Christchurch.*

NZers historically were very proud of and had great confidence in the British Empire, until first the fall of Singapore, when we were suddenly quite on our own (and turned to America for much needed assistance and morale bolstering), and then the onset of the European Economic Community and Britain joining same. Suddenly, an assured market of a percentage of our export in primary goods was under threat or (some believed) about to disappear entirely.

I think that NZ, taking pride in Commonwealth membership, has used this as a replacement for the old Imperial pride. Me – I find the Empire to be interesting historically, but that’s about it. It can’t be denied, and for every stuff-up made by the bureaucrats and military heads along the way, there were also successes.

So – for me, I just find it historically intriguing.

*I’m on holiday. :smiley: