BSA leaders / Scout parents / Eagle Scouts: am I totally off base WRT my troop's Eagle expectations?

[robby]

@Dendarii_Dame

When I was a high school senior, four boys in my class did Eagle projects. Three of them were blood drives. (I heard some of the teachers joking about having no blood left for themselves.)
The fourth built a bus shelter on a highway.

I don’t know how long ago this was, but regardless, I get the impression that a lot of the anecdotes related in this thread cover a wide span of time, from decades ago to more recent. In any event, many of the rules and guidance that are now in place for Eagle Scout service projects are to make the process more uniform and consistent between troops, districts, and councils.

As I
[quoted]
(https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21567356&postcount=7) earlier in the thread, a blood drive with canned instructions is specifically mentioned as an example of a project that would not satisfy the current requirements for an Eagle project.

Your project must present an opportunity for planning, development, and leadership. For example, if a blood drive is chosen and the blood bank provides a set of “canned” instructions to be implemented with no further planning, the planning effort would not meet the test.

Conversely, the guidance about there being no minimum number of hours required is because some troops, districts, and councils were requiring projects that were ridiculous in scope, sometimes in an effort to one-up the others or to make themselves look better.

I reiterate what I said earlier about the outsized importance of the project as perceived by the public. While the Eagle service project is important, it’s by no means the only requirement. See here.

To take one example, to earn Eagle Scout, Scouts must earn at least 21 merit badges in different subjects, of which 13 are required (e.g. Citizenship in the Community) and 7 are electives. (Most Scouts end up earning far more elective merit badges than they actually need.) One of the required merit badges is an option between Swimming, Hiking, or Cycling. Nobody completes the Swimming merit badge without learning how to swim, and merit badge counselors (usually at summer camp) take this seriously – you are otherwise putting the Scout’s life at risk. However, some Scouts (for whatever reason) simply never learn to swim well enough to complete this merit badge, so they can also do one of the two alternates. The Hiking merit badge requires a total of six hikes (plus other requirements), including one 5-mile hike, three 10-mile hikes, one 15-mile hike, and one 20-mile continuous hike which must be completed in one day. The Cycling merit badge requires two rides of 10 miles each, two rides of 15 miles each, two rides of 25 miles each, and a 50 mile ride which must be completed within 8 hours, as well as several other requirements. All of this concerns just one Eagle required merit badge. There are 20 other merit badges which must also be completed.

[robby]

@Chronos

To be honest, there is some slack in the merit badge requirements. For any badge based on making something, there will be kits that you can buy that eliminate most of the work, and there are some requirements that will require a judgement call.

Off the top of my head, I can only think of two merit badges that involve “making stuff” for which there are kits that are commonly available: Leatherwork and Basketry. Both are typically offered at summer camp and are aimed at fairly young Scouts (typically 11 years old). Neither are Eagle-required merit badges.

@Chronos

Location can also matter: I’m sure it’s a lot easier to earn the Wilderness Survival badge for scouts in Hawaii than in North Dakota.

I’m sure that’s true, but that’s just one overnight campout. Our troop did tent camping year-round here in New England. My son calculated that he’d been on over 75 overnight campouts over every month of the year here over the course of 6-1/2 years in Scouts.

@Chronos

…But there’s at least some protection in that you won’t find counselors for all of the merit badges in any one troop, and certainly not any one individual. So any given Eagle Scout had to pass muster from many different individuals, not all of whom have a vested interest in helping him succeed unfairly, for his 28 different badges.

True enough, though the minimum is 21. Again, most Scouts end up with far more elective merit badges than they need. It’s far more difficult to complete all of the Eagle-required merit badges, and Districts and Councils generally pay fairly close attention to merit badge counselors for these merit badges.

[TokyoBayer]

@divemaster

The Eagle project is a “make it up and do it yourself” kindof thing.

Unless it’s not.

@robby

It is absolutely a lot of work, and no, “building a park bench with your Dad” on a Saturday using prepackaged plans and specs is not an acceptable Eagle Scout service project for any troop that I’ve ever been involved with.

Which is not to say that someone can’t rig the system, especially if facilitated by poor adult leaders. This is one reason why troops are overseen by District and Council representatives, and why they require that adult leaders be thoroughly trained so they know the right way to do things.

Mine was a completely different experience. Our leaders were not trained at all. They were called by the bishop (the lay leader of the congregation) and many did not have any scouting experience at all. I’ve heard that Mormon troops had a reputation as not being very good, despite being a large presence. At one point they constituted 30% of the total number of scouts. Of course, these large numbers were possible because ALL Mormon boys were enrolled, which means that a lot of kids who don’t want to be there are included.

I only had one leader who had actually been a scout before, and he was very upset with how the troop was run, the lack of motivation by the boys and lack of support from the parents and other leaders. I only briefly remember him because he quit very soon.

@Eonwe

Of course there are tons of Eagle Scouts who accomplished some large, objectively difficult or meaningful projects. And of course those are in the minority. That’s how the world works, and groups that want to position themselves as “elite” are in a constant battle between their public image and the reality of their membership.

Unfortunately, this is the truth in my experience.

The OP supports this, as they are met with rolled eyes and blank stares when attempting to bring the standards of the Eagle projects up to what is claimed here as the normal.

[nearwildheaven]

@robby

To take one example, to earn Eagle Scout, Scouts must earn at least 21 merit badges in different subjects, of which 13 are required (e.g. Citizenship in the Community) and 7 are electives. (Most Scouts end up earning far more elective merit badges than they actually need.) One of the required merit badges is an option between Swimming, Hiking, or Cycling. Nobody completes the Swimming merit badge without learning how to swim, and merit badge counselors (usually at summer camp) take this seriously – you are otherwise putting the Scout’s life at risk. However, some Scouts (for whatever reason) simply never learn to swim well enough to complete this merit badge, so they can also do one of the two alternates. The Hiking merit badge requires a total of six hikes (plus other requirements), including one 5-mile hike, three 10-mile hikes, one 15-mile hike, and one 20-mile continuous hike which must be completed in one day. The Cycling merit badge requires two rides of 10 miles each, two rides of 15 miles each, two rides of 25 miles each, and a 50 mile ride which must be completed within 8 hours, as well as several other requirements. All of this concerns just one Eagle required merit badge. There are 20 other merit badges which must also be completed.

Are there provisions for physically disabled Scouts?

[robby]

@nearwildheaven

Are there provisions for physically disabled Scouts?

Yes. See here: Advancement for Members With Special Needs

With respect to Eagle-required merit badges:

10.2.2.3 Alternative Merit Badges for Eagle Scout Rank

Though individual requirements for merit badges may not be modified or substituted, youth with special needs may request approval for alternative badges they can complete…

[robby]

@TokyoBayer

Unless it’s not.

Mine was a completely different experience. Our leaders were not trained at all. They were called by the bishop (the lay leader of the congregation) and many did not have any scouting experience at all. I’ve heard that Mormon troops had a reputation as not being very good, despite being a large presence. At one point they constituted 30% of the total number of scouts. Of course, these large numbers were possible because ALL Mormon boys were enrolled, which means that a lot of kids who don’t want to be there are included.

I only had one leader who had actually been a scout before, and he was very upset with how the troop was run, the lack of motivation by the boys and lack of support from the parents and other leaders. I only briefly remember him because he quit very soon.

Unfortunately, this is the truth in my experience.

The OP supports this, as they are met with rolled eyes and blank stares when attempting to bring the standards of the Eagle projects up to what is claimed here as the normal.

TokyoBayer, you were in a troop in which, you report, none of the leaders were trained and many of the boys were forced to be there by the Mormon church. This seems sub-optimal. I’ve never been involved in a troop like that, and hopefully your troop was not the norm for Mormon-sponsored troops.

(For what it’s worth, the LDS Church’s relationship with BSA is ending as of this year. Cite. Here’s some interesting commentary.)

The OP who started this thread indicated that he was involved with a relatively new troop that was chartered recently enough that their first batch of Eagle candidates are just now approaching their Eagle projects. It doesn’t sound like the troop leadership of this new troop has much understanding of what is expected.

BSA has fairly detailed written guidance on what is expected for advancement. In my 15+ years as an adult volunteer leader, I’ve done what I could to follow this – and so have the other leaders around me. Our troop has a long history behind it. We’re about to celebrate our 80th anniversary. We have an adult leader still registered with our troop who made Eagle Scout in our troop as a teenager in 1972.

In my own personal experience with several BSA troops across the country in Tennessee, Illinois, Texas, and Connecticut dating back to the early 1980s, it is my experience that BSA advancement standards, in general, been fairly strictly enforced. When I was younger, I liked having clearly-defined standards, so this appealed to me. It’s one of the reasons I liked Scouts so much, and is why I encouraged my son to join, and why I still remain active in my son’s troop, even though he made Eagle Scout and went off to college 4 years ago.

[Asuka]

@TokyoBayer

Unless it’s not.

Mine was a completely different experience. Our leaders were not trained at all. They were called by the bishop (the lay leader of the congregation) and many did not have any scouting experience at all. I’ve heard that Mormon troops had a reputation as not being very good, despite being a large presence. At one point they constituted 30% of the total number of scouts. Of course, these large numbers were possible because ALL Mormon boys were enrolled, which means that a lot of kids who don’t want to be there are included.

I only had one leader who had actually been a scout before, and he was very upset with how the troop was run, the lack of motivation by the boys and lack of support from the parents and other leaders. I only briefly remember him because he quit very soon.

Unfortunately, this is the truth in my experience.

The OP supports this, as they are met with rolled eyes and blank stares when attempting to bring the standards of the Eagle projects up to what is claimed here as the normal.

I was in the opposite, started off in a Mormon Boy Scout troop that had two AMAZING leaders and had a small but dedicated scout base of about 15. The only really iffy part was the sheer amount of times we did “community benefit” projects that revolved around picking up trash around Mormon churches.

Then I was moved to a larger (50 to 60) non-mormon troop that met at a High School when I outgrew the smaller Mormon troop and that’s when everything basically went to shit. Scouts who didn’t want to be there, leaders who were non-committal, regional leadership who would come in and start yelling at us for various things (they were always angry that we weren’t expanding MORE and not recruiting people in our high schools) and other stuff. Every problem seemed to be based on the fact that leadership wanted to get as many scouts into the program as possible as part of a “prestige” thing for whatever reason so we had a lot of scouts with too few leaders and too many people who didn’t care.

Of course this isn’t exclusive to Boy Scouts, one of my sisters was a Gold Award Girl Scout despite being so lazy that if the house was on fire she wouldn’t get out of bed to escape it. Apparently her troop also suffered from the same problem, too many girl scouts and whoever was running it was maybe using it to skim cash since they were OBSESSED with collecting “fees” for various things. This is probably why scouting in major cities is seen as such a joke.

[sbunny8]

Eagle Scout from 1983 here.

I think it’s perfectly normal for adults to look back on their own past and think about how hard it was and then look at the present and think, “phht. These kids have it soooo easy.” But the other side of the coin is that you have to remember that these are children. They generally aren’t organized, motivated, or ethical – at least not on a consistent basis. In my adult life, I have had several co-workers who were in their early twenties, and every single one of them was late at least once a week (if not every day), often wouldn’t show up at all, and frequently would reveal their ignorance on simple topics about how the world works, like taxes and insurance. If young adults in their twenties are so disorganized and unreliable, how much can you really expect from a 13-15 year old child?

It may even be true that Eagle projects are held to lower standards now than they were in the past. I remember when I did my project the guideline was to spent at least 25 hours on the project, and you were required to get other people (typically other scouts) to help you. That was 25 person-hours TOTAL, of you and all your helpers. If you get three helpers and you all work seven hours on a Saturday, that’s 28 hours worked and you’re past the minimum already. So, yes, you can knock out an Eagle project in just one day. And that’s by 1983 standards. I can imagine that it might be a little easier now. I think the most important thing is to get them to TRY. Let them see what it feels like to have big ideas and then get frustrated trying to bring it to reality. Let them deal with helpers who are doing you a favor so you have to be nice to them while you are leading them. And then have them write a report about their experience.

It doesn’t matter if the park bench looks nice or not. Heck, they probably learned more from making a lousy park bench.