Huh. I kinda liked the movie. I found it enjoyable, in a campy, isn’t-this-silly kind of way. I suppose it works better if you see the movie first, so you don’t have the series to compare it to. (I am something relatively rare among Buffy fandom–someone who saw the movie, liked it, and watched the series from day one hoping for more of the same).
BTW, I have a friend who LOVED the movie and despises the series. You say “Buffy” to him, and to this day he thinks Kristy Swanson. But then, he’s an odd duck.
I agree the film is surely not in continuity. In addition to the differences already mentioned (the vamps didn’t turn to dust when killed, the gym didn’t burn down), the movie Buffy also had a love interest. A guy named Pike, played by Luke Perry, who she ended up with at the end. He has never been so much as alluded to in the series. And then there was that whole “vampire sense that feels like menstrual cramps” thing, which the series thankfully did not include.
Although there was IMHO an allusion to it in the first season (maybe the pilot?), when Giles and Buffy were at the Bronze. Giles was yammering away about focusing and Buffy spots a vampire by his fashion sense. “Only someone who’s been underground for ten years would think that outfit was stylish.”
I liked the movie all right. It’s nowhere near as good as the series. I didn’t get the series in my area for the first two (and part of the third) season, so I was mostly shaking my head when I’d hear about it, thinking that the movie was a pretty poor base for a series. Then I started watching the series, and I was humbled.
I started watching late (4th season)…but I’ve heard Giles’ “Ripper” past alluded to. I get the idea he was some sort of renegade demon hunter, maybe? Someone wild & all into “black magic”? But I’m not quite sure. Anyone out there with the skinny on Giles’ past?
Also, seeing that his new BBC show is called “Ripper”, I wonder if he’ll be getting caught back up into that scene. I hope the show doesn’t turn out to be “Murder She Wrote” with Demons!
Giles fell in with a bad crowd in his teens. Doing the standard ‘naughty’ teenaged things, of course. And, also, summoning at least one really bad demon.
Said demon has (er…had…I think it’s dead) the ability to possess dead or unconcious humans - including Jenny Calendar (unconcious), Angel (dead - neat little trick that), and most of the little demon-summoning circle that Ripper had belonged to (dead).
The demon isn’t the only aspect of his ‘Ripper’ life that came back to haunt Giles - Ethan Thorne (Damn…do I have his last name right?) has shown up a few times to wreak havoc in Sunnydale. Ethan’s the first person to refer to him as Ripper, and IIRC mostly showed up in seasons 2 and 3, but is still at large.
And, from all information, the new BBC show is The Watchers (Which Giles is central to, and why he left Sunnydale), not Ripper…
I’ve seen every episode and I have no idea what demon you’re talking about, and don’t remember Jenny or Angel ever being possessed.
It’s Ethan Rayne, and as far as we know he is not still at large. At the end of the episode where he turned Giles into a demon he was apprehended by the Initiative.
The IMDB says it’s called Ripper. So no, “all information” doesn’t have it as The Watchers.
I’ve always thought of Giles as a reformed John Constantine (from the Vertigo comic Hellblazer).
Wow. I know a ton about Buffy, but it doesn’t look like there are any unanswered questions left for me. All I can do is give a link to a good summary of The Dark Age so Fiver can take a look.
I’ve seen that episode twice in the last couple of weeks.
Thanks for the corrections on ‘Ripper’. I never saw any of the episodes with Giles’ past (though it was probably mentioned in the Halloween episode with everyone becoming their costumes; seems like the perpetrator in that one was an old ‘friend’ of Giles’), and was just mentioning something I’d read online. I guess the source wasn’t too careful with details.
I sure hope we’ll be able to see the new series here in the States. It’ll be sort of strange, having the UK audience lagged on Buffy and Angel, while we’re behind on The Watchers (or Ripper, whatever).
Ah, Bloody Hell! - Sources of Blood for Reformed Vamps
Blood bags in Angel’s ‘fridge is the first season episode entitled “Angel,” and yes, Darla reveals them quipping that he’s not exactly “eating quiche.” Darla actually then feeds on Joyce Summers and sets Angel, who does not take the opportunity to feed, up with the now anemic mom of the slayer.
Buffy foils at least one robbery attempt by a vampire gang on a (Red Cross) blood-mobile (or blood delivery van) outside a hospital.
We’ve seen Angel–via flashbacks–trying to catch rats in LA or NYC for their blood. IIRC, Whistler says something like, “Look at you–you’re skin and bones. Butcher shops are throwing away more blood in a week than…something, something…”
I believe we also get a peak in Angel’s refrigerator in the episode of Angel while Cordelia is staying with him due to the extremely large cockroaches in her apartment before she finds her room with a boo.
On at least one occasion that I remember specifically (though I believe there are more) Cordelia serves him blood (presumably cow or pig variety) in her apartment after her ordeal of getting the multi-visions that puts her in the psyche-ward. Angel even says, “I think it—it’s coagulating.” To which Cordelia responds that she’s put cinnamon in it… “What? I can’t try something?”
And poor Wesley gets a swig of high-quality, fresh blood from a warlock-mobster (looking for a bodyguard for his daughter) when he impersonates Angel.
Spike is brought blood (again presumably cow or pig) in a “Kiss the Librarian” mug while chained up in Giles bathtub in, I believe, “Something Blue.” And, I seem to recall a demon/vampire bar Spike visits where they may serve up a pint or two of the stuff.
We have seen Angel (not to be confused with Angelus) drink from Buffy to remove the curse/poison and at least bite the (Angel) series’ favorite LA Detective, Kate, to keep her from being harmed worse but the bloodlust cause by a bad-vibing shroud being stolen from the museum.
Rip-Roaring Ripper Time!
Ethan Raine first came to Sunnydale for “Halloween” in Season 2. He opened a costume shop and set up a (Chaos) demon-spell that caused everyone to become whatever their costumes were…Giles confronts Ethan who refers to him (or the first time) as Ripper. Ethan is then pummeled by Ripper Giles, who takes the time to clean his glasses while kicking Ethan in the stomach until Ethan tells him how to stop the spell. Ethan returns in “The Dark Age,” a few episodes later. Then comes again for “Band Candy” and as referred to above for “A New Man” wherein he slips Giles a Mickey that is neither mousey nor Minnie.
Don’t know much about the BBC project yet…nor could I hope to gauge the Slayer’s (or vampires’) strength. I do wonder why demons don’t slip her some of that natural medicine the Watcher’s Council has Ruppert administer for her test that makes her “Helpless” in Season 3.
Another blatant case of blood transfer…during “The Prom” (Season 3 or 4) when Buffy’s trying to track down the source of the Hellhounds, she visits a butcher to inquire about unusual purchases. She runs into Angel making an under the counter purchase of blood. I believe she even says something to him about it.
How strong are slayers? My personal belief is that it varies directly with how strong she is required to be for the episode she is in. Having said that…
She has to be at least as strong as the vampires. We understand in general that vampires are stronger than regular humans. That’s the only consistency, really. Note that in season one, she jumps over a high fence without any effort at all (“Welcome to the Hellmouth/The Harvest”). I’m not sure that she even bends her knees to make the jump, yet we never see that ability again. In season 5, Spike (who should have super vampire strength) can’t even pick the troll hammer, yet Buffy not only lifts it like it weighed nothing (“The Gift”), but she also pummels Glory with it repeatedly, at one point saying “And my arm isn’t even tired”. We see her bend a rifle (season two’s “Phases”). Obviously, she’s pretty strong when she wants to be.
I had to make up my own explanation for this sort of thing, because in Graduation Day, Angel gets poisoned with something that kills vampires. Makes me wonder why they can’t use that to slay vampires a little easier, especially for the Scooby Gang, since they aren’t as strong as Buffy.
I figured that these were really special occasion items, little known, and extremely difficult to obtain. Otherwise, why wouldn’t they be using these poisons and potions all the time?
And here I haven’t looked at this thread in 2 days, I thought I would be back right away. Sorry I guess, [SUB] not like everyone was waiting with baited breath[/SUB] anyway a few things.
Peta Tzunami is largely correct, with an exception. I don’t believe that Angel EVER drinks human blood. Last reference I can recall off the top of my head was the episode of Angel where Harmony guest stars. She drinks the blood out of the fridge, and basically thinks it is gross. She goes on a little tangent asking Angel if he ever misses it, and Angel obviously on some deep level still does. Apparently cow blood is a poor substitute, but it keeps him vital, for lack of a better term. Drinking human blood would be very dangerous for him, as it might re-awaken the lust. He did however drink from Kate. There are noticable drinking sounds as he does it, and at the end of the episode Cordelia and Westley are seen sitting on the couch hoping they haven’t reawakened the blood lust. I am glad he mentioned the butcher shop during the Prom episode, as it was driving me nuts reading the thread. You ever wanna yell at the screen?
Hey Fiver
Ever wonder what happens to Rayne when the initiative is disabled? I just watched Halloween and was wondering that. I mean who has him in prison?
I also believe the show is called Ripper. There was a recent interview with Joss Whedon on the onion’s av club, where he refers to it. I’ll post a link if I find it.
There is a longer version of the interview linked at the end of that one, it was too long for the print edition. Weird, now I don’t see the Ripper reference.
Oh, and also
I thought the same thing, I think Angel’s body could have gone willy-nilly, but Angel couldn’t have gotten laid in the old person’s body. Not that he would have wanted to, being all gross.
As Trion and Lola said, the episode is The Dark Age (I’m awful with episode titles, there’s only a handful I can remember offhand - Welcome to the Hellmouth, The Harvest, Phases, Graduation, Hush, and The Body - or else I’d have mentioned that in my original post), the demon’s name is Eygon, and Jenny was possessed - Eygone trying to seduce Giles was the first step to revealing himself - and he’s coerced into possessing Angel as a way of eliminating him (Eygone, of course, not Angel).
Thanks, though, for the correction on Ethan’s last name and ultimate fate - although as rushtopher pointed out, with the Initiative defunct, his current whereabouts are unknown.
And, well, Ripper’s new for me…it’s been The Watchers from day one - when they changed the title, or else revealed the actual title, I seem to have missed that. Even better…
The issue is complicated when we remember the Angel episode (don’t know the title, sorry) where Angel was briefly turned human. Buffy came to visit and they did the nasty repeatedly over about 24 hours with no bad consequences.
There was no question but that Angel was still Angel, meaning he still had the soul of Liam of Galway even though he’d turned human again. And Wesley even specifically said “he’s not cursed anymore.”
So these two episodes taken together seem to suggest the curse is tied to the soul AND the body. If the two are separated it doesn’t apply.
Thanks for the link, lolagranola. My memory of the first couple of seasons is a little hazy. I look forward to receipt of the first season on DVD, which I’ve pre-ordered at BarnesandNoble.com. I’ll have as much Buffy as I ever want.
You know, I really do think there’s a fundamental misunderstanding about the nature of Angel’s curse (and to be fair, the show itself seems to make this mistake as well). Everybody keeps assuming that if Angel has sex, he’ll turn evil again. Cordelia made that assumption in this week’s episode, and Darla seemed surprised that it didn’t happen after she and Angel did it last season.
The thing that breaks the curse is “a moment of perfect happiness.” Angel’s moment of perfect happiness was not just the sex. It was that he’d finally consumated his relationship with Buffy, the first woman he’d ever been truly, deeply in love with. It was the accumulation of all the preceding events. They’d had this developing romance, and they’d just been fighting for their lives. And now they finally make love for the first time. It’s special for both of them, and afterwards Angel looks at her as she sleeps, thinks about how much he loves her, and realizes how truly happy he is, after centuries of misery.
And BANG. Curse is broken, he’s evil again. But it wasn’t just having sex that did it. It was all the emotions involved in that particular moment. I think it’s a mistake to assume that Angel having sex=Angelus.
In the meantime…the DVDs are available for pre-order? Cool.
We know it’s not just about sex, MrAtoz, but I don’t think it needs to be a unique moment like the first time he does it with a woman he truly loves. It’s reasonable to assume it could be any time he does it with someone he loves.
For that matter, it’s reasonable to assume the only person who could tell Angel and his homeys exactly how the curse works is Jenny, and she’s dead. And there’s a proven history of sex-with-a-loved-one breaking the curse, so “why look for trouble,” is probably how they all approach the matter.
Which brings us to another topic I’ve been wanting to discuss around here: why do you suppose no one’s ever suggested invoking the curse against Darla, or Drusilla, or any other vampires? Vampires are powerful creatures; it seems like it would be productive to “turn” some of them to working for you.
Whoa, I don’t believe Angel drinks human blood now, but I do suspect that at the time they did the “Angel” episode way back in the first season, the impression we are meant to have is that his source is hoisted (or black market purchased) human blood from a blood-bank. I say this because they are hung in hospital-style bags. Since Joss has said in interviews he didn’t know at the time they hired David that Angel would become so much a part of the show–let alone a spin-off, I’d wager they hadn’t decided yet that he would only drink non-human blood.
Definitely in instances following that one, I think the powers-that-be (Joss/Writers) decided to have him drink only non-human animal blood while he is Angel, thus separating him more completely from Angelus who feeds off humans without a problem. IIRC, Buffy has to push him off her when he’s drinking slayer blood (with her consent) to cure himself.
Another blood-scene reminding us that the source is likely blood from a butcher occurs in the episode of Angel when Cordelia is impregnated by a demon – she drinks blood directly from Angel’s refrigerator that is stored in a white, Styrofoam container like the one we see Angel purchase in “The Prom.”
Both Spike and Dracula touch on just what blood means to vampires. Spike’s words are echoed in Buffy’s thoughts in the most recent season finale before she takes the big jump. “It’s always got to be blood, blood is life.” Don’t forget, theirs is something alluring and sensual, possibly seductive or titillating about being “bled” by a vamp as well – as we saw Riley paying for the service from vampwhores and Buffy drawn into it by Dracula.
Sidebar: (1) Speaking of Spike, in the episodes wherein he is a hostage at Giles’ flat, they warm his butcher’s blood to 98.6-degrees (human body temperature) for him. (2) Joss’s mythology, however, doesn’t follow Anne Rice’s vampire mythology that says vampires can only feed on the living. According to Rice, once the heart stops, a vampire stops drinking (according to what I saw in “Interview with a Vampire”). I think this may be addressed in the Buffy book “Monsters” (but alas, it’s at home right now).
I think the blood gurgling sounds during the Kate incident were for the benefit of the other demon robbers–it is meant to trick them, not necessarily to indicate that Angel actually drank from Kate…BUT, I also think that perhaps Joss/the writers meant that to be open-ended because they later show Angel (and Kate as she feels the wound) being all moody and reflective.
Eps Title: “I Will Remember You”
I’ll go further and say that the curse is tied to all three parts of Angel–the demon, the body and Liam’s soul. The curse is what keeps Liam’s soul in the dead body held by (or host to) the demon that causes him (his body) to be a vampire. When the body was returned to its living state and Angel/Liam becomes human for that day, the demon left the body (the demon that causes “vampire” can only reside in a dead body which is why they kill the person – the demon takes up residence where the soul used to be). If there is no demon, the body and soul can no longer be subject to the curse IMHO.
Cordelia made that assumption in this week’s episode, and Darla seemed surprised that it didn’t happen after she and Angel did it last season.
[/QUOTE]
I don’t think Angel has or plans to tell anyone about the fact that it’s not the act of sex, as “perfect happiness” that turns him because then he’d have to explain how he knows. His friends would be disappointed to learn that not only did he take the chance of becoming evil but that he did it with demon-Darla. Of course, it’s Jenny and her uncle who coin the phrase “knows perfect happiness” the curse also entails him simultaneously forgetting about all the pain and suffering he’s caused in that moment of happiness.
I’m trying to remember back to the conjuring Angel’s soul episode(s), and I seem to recall someone (Giles?) saying that it’s very tricky bringing one’s soul back from the netherworld where it is sent when one dies. Also, I think we are to believe there is something special about Angel given the way Willow comes semi-possessed doing the spell to restore his soul and that he is redeposited back on earth body, soul and demon after suffering torment in hell for x-hundred years.
Plus, it’s not exactly a bonus–I mean, a vampire who gets their soul back exist with a full and painful conscience reminding them of all the evil they’ve done. Look at what the human-souled Darla started to go through as she started to remember and feel soulful remorse for all the evil she’d done across some 400+ years…
I have thought WAY too much about all this…
So, when should I shamefully plug my own Buffy webpage which desperately needs updated?
Peta aka B. Watcher
[sub]p.s. I can’t believe no one is speculating about Darla’s bundle of…evil/joy?[/sub]
