Buffy, Angel Mythology Grab Bag (Spoilers)

Cafe Society
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We tend to start threads about individual episodes of either show that tend to range into discussion of the latest episode of the other show.

This thread is intended to be for discussion of the overall mythology and character details of Joss’s vision, with less focus on particular episodes. But of course it will still have spoilers, so y’all playing catch-up out there with the FX reruns may want to stay away.

I’ll start. What is Faith in prison for? She confessed to killing Sunnydale’s deputy mayor, but it was an accident: she thought the deep was a vampire and staked his heart.

Surely she didn’t tell the authorities that. But how else could she convince them she “accidentally” drove a stake through a living man’s heart?

Assuming she confessed to something like voluntary manslaughter, and that she was a juvenile, how long should she be in stir? Assuming she’s sincere in her remorse and won’t bust out, which I’m sure she could easily do.

Was the First Slayer African or Australian? I couldn’t tell by her features and I don’t know enough about African or Australian body paint to guess from that, either.

Who are all the slayers we know? I’ve got:

  1. The First Slayer (ancient times)
  2. Chinese Slayer (1900)
  3. “Subway” Slayer (1970s)
  4. Buffy (1997, 1997-2001, 2001-)
  5. Kendra (1997-1998)
  6. Faith (1998-)
  7. Melaka Fray (26th century)[sup]1[/sup]

Have I left any out?

[sup]1[/sup]You’re all welcome to quibble with my inclusion of Fray, which may be non-canon since she’s the star of the comic book and hasn’t been mentioned in either of the series, but since Joss is writing the comic book I figure what the heck.

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Well, she’s been doing all sorts of things in Sunnyvale. But my impression was that she was being jailed for various assault type things in LA, and that the deep killing was pretty much past news.

Not very. I don’t think the juvenile assumption is valid; she could very well be over eighteen by LA time. Say, three to five at most.

You’re being too literal. The First Slayer was “primitive”. Generic primitive I don’t think they went any farther; it is entirely possible that she was Native American.

I say Melaka is in. As far as the list is concerned, didn’t we have a blond slayer that Spike sucked? Around the early 1800s? My memory plays tricks, but I seem to remember that from one episode.

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From what I remember, Faith is in jail for murder in LA. She attacked a guy as she got off the bus and took his keys to his appartment. This is where she was torturing Wesley. We can assume the owner of the appartment died, 'cause Angel was able to enter. Various assault charges and the like were probably added to her sentance.

Here’s a topic for you -

The Initiative had planned to make monsters harmless by implanting those little chips in their heads. Spike had a chip implanted in his head and he is currently harmless. Not only that, he is activly good (at times at least). So the Initiative was right. Their plan works even better than they expected.

So what was all that bla-bla about tampering-with-the-natural-balance stuff we heard early on?

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Don’t recall a blond Slayer Spike killed. The show has consistently said that Spike killed two slayers, and the episode last year identified them as Chinese and Subway Slayers.
As to other Slayers, there is the mention of the Slayer who forged her own weapons, but no other information was provided.

Sua

Trion - I think the tampering charge against the Initiative was the experiments such as fusing together parts of demons and the like, a la Adam.

Sua

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What I want to know is, back when he was bad, Spike kicked ass. Now that he’s “good,” whenever a fight breaks out, it’s all “Here let me help,” SMACK “I’m unconscious.”

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I just realized I posted an incomplete thought. What I meant was, Why does Spike suck now? And why the Hell hasn’t Xander ever learned to fight? He’s been helping out for the past, what, five years? He’s as effective as Spike is now. And don’t blame Spike’s frailties on the chip, I’m talking about his ability to fight demons. It’s gone WAY downhill. And Xander still blows. What gives?

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Can we count the Gypsy slayer that Buffy dreamed of in the movie?

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I only started watching buffy lately(thank god for FX), and I have a rather basic question. Are Vamps in the Buffy Universe required to feed every night? How does Spike feed with that chip in his head? I’ve seen Angelus kill, but i don’t now that i’ve ever seen Angel drink someones blood either(last nights episode with the body-switching notwithstanding). don’t they get hungry?

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On the heels of Saltire’s question, where does the Buffy movie (was it Kristy Swanson in that?) fit in with the Buffiverse as we know it? I’ve never seen it and have heard from several friends/fans (fans of Buffy, not fans of me) that it’s a far cry from the series, and that the series is closer to Joss’s vision.

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OK, I’m not a diehard Buffy-obsessed fan, so I suppose everyone will say they already knew this.

I wasn’t sure if Joss Whedon had been involved with the original movie, so I checked IMDB. Turns out he did write the movie.

But it also credits him with creating a series titled Ripper with a date of 2002. Apparently, there is a second spinoff in production, staring Anthony Head as Giles (who’s nickname among Watchers is ‘Ripper’). I’d link to the IMDB page, if it weren’t now refusing to connect me.

This fact is presented, not as a hijack, but to spur discussion of Watchers in general and Giles/Ripper in particular.

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Ooooh boy a buffy thread, I can see I won’t be getting any work done for the rest of today:

Lets see dlb said:

This is how I always assumed it. Almost neanderthal.
Then SuaSponte

Sua is correct here. It think you are mistaken about a blond slayer dlb, there was definitely the slayer during the Boxer rebellion then the refugee from a seventies blaxploitation film.

Okay, sorry if I jump around Rosebud:

The Buffyverse is based on Joss’s original screenplay, the movie was modified to make it suckier (people like Donald Sutherland were changing lines, same old movie bs) and so Joss based the series off his screenplay. You’ll notice in the first season Buffy refers to burning down the school which doesn’t happen in the movie. Prom is ruined, but the school isn’t burned down. Therefore, I do not know if we count the dream.

Saltire

This is a series being created for the BBC, because Anthony Stewart Head wants to live in Britain closer to his family. I’ve heard it will be more like ghost stories, of course with a Buffy twist since he will be playing Giles.

5-HT nice name…

Angel buys cows blood and the like from butchers. The blood thing is more of a lust, although they require it to stay vital, they will not die without it. Spike described it once, apparently they become extrememly pale and weak, I believe his words were “walking dead” which is Ironic. I’m not sure where Spike gets his. Angel does not drink human blood, I don’t know if we can say the same for Spike.

Elvis

I don’t think Spike sucks now, did you see the season premire? He does some cool stuff, including lighting a guy on fire. However I do think he lost some killer instinct because of the chip in his head. As for Xander, maybe he hasn’t had time? I have wondered this too, I mean, you’d think he’d want to not get killed. He seems to do the same thing every time, grab the guy from behind in a bear hug, then get knocked to the floor unconcious.

Whew! Time for preview, hope there were no new posts…

Nope. And I got the coding on the first try.

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Trion, I am pretty sure you’re mistaken. I think the Angel episode in which Faith turned herself in made explicit mention of the deep.

El Elvis Rojo, what I wonder about Spike is, since he can attack demons, why can’t he feed on them? At least some of them have blood like ours (Lorne, for example). And we know vampires don’t need human blood, because…

rushtopher, it’s been established that Spike gets pig’s blood from Sunnydale butchers. But,

5-HT, we haven’t been told how often a vampire must have blood. The last time Angel fed on a human (when he was in his right mind) was a couple of years ago, when he had some magic ailment that could only be cured by feeding on a Slayer. Buffy let him feed on her.

Rosebud, I’m your fan. And the TV show’s continuity follows on that of the movie, which was set in Los Angeles. The first episode, you may recall, established that Buffy and her mom have just moved to Sunnydale to try to make a fresh start after the events of the movie.

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Whoo, I have a fan! I’m going to start printing t-shirts up… decoder rings… little dolls representing my various moods…

So is the movie worth seeing? I don’t feel as if I’m at all lost in Sunnydale without having seen it; even if I wasn’t a spoiler freak I’d feel well-oriented just having watched the series from the first episode on. But if there’s some background there that I’m missing I’d like to pick up on it.

rushtopher, thanks-- the altering of Joss’s screenplay kind of explains the opinions I’ve heard about the movie.

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In addition to the body-switching episode, and the Buffy ep where he was poisoned by Faith and had to drink Slayer blood for a cure, Angel bit Kate (the police officer) during the first season, but I don’t think he actually drank her blood.

About Spike, I wonder if the chip would prevent him from biting a willing victim, like the vampire “junkies” from the episode where Buffy and Riley broke up? Spike was obviously familar with the place, maybe he’s a customer? It was shown in the episode where Drusilla came back for him that he had no problems drinking from a dead human.

Are you thinking of that Spike & Dru book, Pretty Maids All in a Row? The two of them went through a whole platoon of Slayers in that, including the main character, who was blonde, and IIRC, was killed by Spike.

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(Yes, Rosebud, I have a baseball cap with a picture of a rosebud on it. A big pennant that says “Rosebud.” I take them into the bleachers with me and holler “Whooo-hoo! Come on! Go, Rose!”)

The movie’s worth seeing only out of pure curiosity. It’s quite bad (due mainly to the directing, IMHO, and not Joss’s screenplay). It does not achieve the delicate balance of humor and horror the TV show has.

And the vampire mythology is a little more traditional, since they had a movie budget to work with: the vamps can fly and change shape, for example.

And ISTR the vamps simply die when they’re staked: they don’t turn to dust.

I think I read somewhere that Kristy Swanson was invited to reprise her role for the series, but turned it down because she felt she was too old to play a high school girl. I agree, and I’m glad they went with SMG instead.

On other matters, let’s talk about the mind-swap that happened on Angel last night. Presumably, what actually happened was that Marcus’s soul and Angel’s swapped places.

So what happened to the curse? Angel’s body was still a vampire harboring a soul; it’s just that the soul was now that of Marcus Roscoe and not the former Liam of Galway. Did the curse still apply?

If Marcus-in-Angel had experienced a moment of pure bliss, would Marcus’s soul be released to whatever reward or punishment it had coming, leaving Angelus the demon back in charge?

Or did the curse go with the soul, such that if Angel-in-Marcus had experienced a moment of pure bliss, Angel would check out and Marcus’s body would simply die?

I confess I have no idea.

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Fiver: My guess is that the curse is tied to the soul. Otherwise, it would be too easy to circumvent, considering how often people in the Buffyverse swap bodies.

Re: Buffy the movie, I recall reading (no cite, natch) that Joss had officially said that the movie is not part of the TV show’s continuity. Something similar to what happens in the movie happened to SMG (still read that as “sub-machine gun”), but the movie itself never actually happened, as far as the show is concerned. I agree that the movie sucks, but it is worth seeing for Paul Reuban’s death scene.

VereGemini: Pretty Maids All in a Row was set during WWII, and Spike and Dru personally only accounted for one of the slayers killed in the book. (although she was a blonde)

Not that I’ve read it, or anything. Not me, I don’t read books based on TV shows. Hey, is that a Dostoyevski thread? [darts out of room when everyone turns to look]

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I doubt she was even Human - IE, Homo Sapiens. Possibly Homo Erectus, or even H. Habilis - I doubt the PTB would have waited all that long after we attained sentience to give us a little defence against the demons.

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Oh, Jeez, I can’t believe I missed the mention of Spike and Slayer-slaying…

The two Slayers Spike’s shown to have killed on the show were Chinese and black (the latter, I think, American.)

In Pretty Maids…ok, it’s already been spoiled, I’ll just clarify the spoiler…Spike and Dru killed most of the ‘Slayers-in-Waiting’ - a number of girls from around the world (well, Europe, Asia and America) who the Watchers Council thought might be the next Slayer - save for a few, and Spike drained the extant Slayer.

The next Slayer who’s called is killed within minutes by a demon. Her replacement seems to last a while.

I loved that book.

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I know I don’t post on Buffy much here, but I have all except a few episodes on tape and have watched all numerous times. I am a Buffy Queen. So, here we go:

  • Faith is in prison for the hijinks in L.A. They never connected her with the Sunnydale stuff.

-I assume the First Slayer was African as that is where human life first began. Since the Slayer has been around since there have been vampires (ie, from the beginning of the world), we assume she comes from the very first humans.

  • Nitpick: Saltire, the Watchers never called Giles Ripper. His college friends did. Thank you.

-Angel does sometimes drink human blood, in the 2nd season we see blood bags in the fridge.

I agree with most of what rustopher said.

Hmm… any other questions? :smiley:

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I believe we actually first see Angel with blood bags in his fridge in the first season of Buffy, when Darla comes to ‘visit’ him. (The Harvest, maybe? Would have to rewatch my tapes to be sure.)