Over in this thread about fictional worlds that it would suck to live in, I made a comment about the world of Buffy the Vampire Slayer:
pepperlandgirl replied,
Of course, the real reason that God and religion isn’t mentioned is because Joss Whedon thought that pop culture and theology wouldn’t mix. But anyway, I prefer to look for internally consistent explanations. I will post my reply after this.
I think pepperlandgirl’s answer was spot on and internally consistent. What’s your question again?
When I mentioned the Devil’s minions, I was actually talking about demons, but anyway . . .
Okay, Giles did say Genesis was wrong, but a lot of real-world Christians already think it is allegorical without compromising the essential core of their beliefs, so I think in the Buffyverse Genesis can be wrong while God can still exist. The Bible was, after all, written by people, who have been known to get a few things wrong on some rare ocassions (it doesn’t mention evolution, for one thing).
Anyway, the trappings of Christianity work upon vampires (crosses and holy water), so why shouldn’t the rest of it also apply? After all, vampires are presumably hurt because of the holy nature of those items, and they can only be holy if they have some sort of divine power behind them, i.e. God.
It sounds to me like Whedon is trying to have his cake and eat it too. He wants to hearken back to classic vampire stories like Dracula, what with all the crosses and holy water and such, but not deal with what lies behind those objects.
And if God is in Buffyland, then that would imply the Devil is too. But the only religions with power behind them seem to be the ones with sorcery, shamanism, vodoo, etc.
What’s Ubies, anyway? And I don’t know which season 4 episode you’re talking about, so you’ll have to elaborate.
Oh, I just thought of something. How come magicians call upon the Greco-Roman pantheon in their spells? (Hecate, Diana, Aphrodite) The Greeks and Romans certainly never flung around lightning bolts.
And about evolution in Buffyland, did Earth’s demons originate from Earth? Did their ancestors evolve from air-breathing fish? Did Jurassic demons torture and kill velociraptors, and did their prehistoric counterparts harrass Neandertals, or did demons just pop in from another dimension? Which means that originally, the Earth was demon-free, which is kind of a Garden of Eden, especially in comparison to the world post-demons.
I just thought of something else to add to my list of evidence supporting the existence of a Christian God in the Buffyverse: the existence of souls. People don’t have an Egyptian-style ka and ba, they have souls, like Judeo-Christian theology says they should. I admit, it’s kind of weak, there are probably other religions which speak of a dichotomy between flesh and spirit, but it’s still kind of another piece of evidence.
Right, sorry, here is my question put clearly: How come God and the Devil are hardly mentioned in Buffy the Vampire Slayer, when proof of at least God’s existence, and by implication the Devil’s, exists in Buffyland?
Whedon probably hadn’t conceived a complete, unique Buffy mythos when he started. He basically took what everyone already knew about vampires (drink blood, can’t withstand sunlight) and added one brilliant innovation (a high-school cheerleader with the power to defend humankind against them).
It may be a stretch, but it’s possible to imagine that crosses repel vampire without the power of Christ. Perhaps something about the shape serves to focus some kind of supernatural energy. Holy water is a little more problematic. Presumably the only difference between it an ordinary water is a Christian blessing. Maybe he would leave out the holy water if he had to do it over again.
The association of Hecate with witches goes back centuries (see MacBeth).
Humans never inhabited the prehistoric demon-free earth according to the show’s mythology, so the Eden analogy doesn’t hold up.
Souls are certainly not unique to Christianity. The idea of a spirit that continues after death common to too many belief systems to get into here.
I’d say it’s because he preferred to make up his own story. Vampires and such being consistent with Christian mythos (god, devil, etc.) has been done before. It’s more interesting, and probably more enjoyable for Whedon, to come up with something new.
Souls are not unique to Christianity, and one god (or even multiple gods) doesn’t imply a devil. I think most people in America today believe in heaven (I think the number is around 80%, if I remember my sociology class right). But only about 10% accept hell. And most of those asked would be Christians.
And again, while I’m not a Buffy expert, it would seem that normal Christian supernatural stuff - one god, for example - isn’t necessarily the reality of the show.
I’ll concede the soul thing, and I’d forgotten about Macbeth. I’d thought vampires might have some kind of weakness against wood, like stakes and crosses, but Angel seems to handle doors and tables just fine.
Wait, didn’t a vampire once claim to have been present at the Crucifixion? He was probably talking out of his ass, like Spike said before beating him up, but that sort of implies it was an actual event in Buffyland.
Oh, and didn’t Spike once kill a Chinese slayer? I assume she wasn’t Christian, but would she have worn a cross, like Buffy did in her early years?
And did the show actually say demons were on Earth before humans? If you’re talking about the first episode, my impression was that Giles was saying demons have always preyed upon humans, and there was never a demon-free time. Which led to my question about demons and dinosaurs.
I’m a bit to tired now, to write a longer essay on this subject.
I’ll give you links to two interesting articles on the subject that I was reading just yesterday.
The first is sort of a summary of the second, which is very interesting.
You point that vampires have weaknesses related to Christian symbolism, but those types of symbols (crosses for example) predate Christianity. Furthermore, the fact that calling on the Greco/Roman Gods actually works points to th fact that there is not a Christian God–or at least, not just the god. For example, we’ve seen two gods. Glorificus and Osiris. We know that Glorificus was part of a Triad of Gods as well.
In fact, that’s the closest thing we’ve seen to The Devil–Hell Gods. Three of them. The second closest thing we’ve seen to the Devil is THe First Evil–but it’s nature is a bit questionable. It seems to be a combination of all the evil in all of us and the source of said evil. However, it doesn’t share too many characteristics with The Devil as we traditionally know him. Also, there was never a mention in any sort of good power to fight it.
Giles speech in the 1st act of The Harvest
That implies to me that humans didn’t enter the scene until after demons lost their purchase on “this reality.” We know there are multiple dimensions, and apparently Gods for each dimension. We also know there are mutliple gods and magics working in this dimension. We also know that crosses pre-date Christianity.
Not quite. Whedon’s concept of the soul is rather vague and more of a MaGuffin–it’s whatever he needs it to be. I think the “official” stance is though that the soul is really free will. It gives the being the oppurtunity to be good or evil, as opposed to a vampire who is innately evil. IOW, it’s what makes a person human, but it’s not what makes a person that person…but see, everybody could have a different interpertation because Joss just uses the soul (and the chip for that matter) to mean whatever he wants it to mean, and be whatever he needs it to be. But I’ve never seen any indication that it was at all spiritual.
The Turok-Han—the super vampires they fought this season. So old even the “regular” vampires didn’t believe they existed. They’re the vampires that vampires fear, and suppoesdly “pure”. It was never clearly stated, but I think it can be extrapolated that one of the Uber-vamps bit a human and passed the demon on, who “infected” another who “infected” another and so on and so on.
Gods are mentioned all the time. Religions are mentioned all the time. (Willow is Jewish and this season placed stones on Tara’s grave). At a stretch, you can say the First Evil is the devil—if you are really stretching. But the Christian religion isn’t mentioned specifically because in canon (other than crosses, the mention of the crucifiction, and holy water) they don’t know if the Christian God exists. They’ve never called on him, he’s never answered or intervened, Buffy didn’t even see him in heaven, or mention any other kind of god.
and
The Master implied in S1 Nightmares that the reason the cross burns is because of fear and if you can master that fear, it won’t bother you.
Yeah, that Zeus never…oh wait.
Yeah, so crosses repell vampires. And the Insignia Of Yethelump rebukes the Moonhound of Gurthelplex. There are a lot of different Gods in the Buffyverse. We’ve seen at least three: Glory from season five, Jasmine from this season’s Angel, and Osiris when Willow tried to resurrect Tara. Glory and Jasmine were both killed, and Osiris got his ass kicked. By a supporting character, no less. Gods aren’t all they’re cracked up to be. Gods seem to be special purpose: if you want to ressurect someone, you pray to Osiris. If you want to turn someone into a rat, you do a quick chant to Hecate. If you want to vaguely annoy a vampire, wave a crucifix at him. Frankly, Jesus sounds like he’s coming in a distant third, theologically.
My guess is, there is a Christian God, but he’s not an all-powerful creator, he’s just another demi-power, and maybe not even the biggest guy on the block. You invoke him when you need to, like any other God. For whatever reason, he seems to have some special power over vampires. Maybe the Virgin Mary was a Slayer. But you keep it strictly on a professional basis. None of this “worship” crap: that’s what cultists do.
I remember (bear with me) and old issue of X-Men in which they fight Dracula, and the sign of the cross doesn’t hurt him unless it’s made by someone of the faith. Thus, Nightcrawler is able to hurt him with it, but Wolverine isn’t. Additionally, he’s hurt by Kitty Pryde’s star of David.
Perhaps in the Buffyverse, the cross is just a handy tool to focus some kind of internal energy that harms vamps. Obviously it wouldn’t be faith, because, you know, Willow, but it could be something similar.
Not sure about the whole holy water thing, though.
Ugh, I meant to say
Now that’s a spinoff I’d watch.
I think it’s the other way around. Some Christian symbols work because Christianity has incorporated some of the actual anti-vampire tactics into their mythology. It’s like folk medicine - some of it turns out to be effective, but not for the reasons they claim.
That’s funny, she doesn’t look Jewish.
Now I’m just trying to picture how my mother would react if she had a daughter who could walk through walls.
I have the issue in question(tho I can’t remember the number at the moment). Kitty has realized that they’re dealing with a vampire. She dresses up as Indiana Jones(more or less) and arms herself with mallet, stakes, garlic, and a very big cross. Dracula laughs and explains that it takes faith. He begins stangling Kitty. The tiny Star of David she’d forgotten she was wearing burns him quite badly.
Nightcrawler(who’s become a seminarian though he has yet to take his final vows) is able to cause Drac horrible pain and drive him off simply by holding two twigs perpendicular to eachother.
For those who don’t play it-the RPG Vampire The Masquerade incorporates this idea. Holy symbols are effective only when weilded by some one who truly believes. Holy ground is a barrier only if a believer is there to fortify it.
RE-OP
Many episodes of Angel give the idea that there are levels of champions, and above them layers of powers and that at the highest level is God. OTOMH I can’t recall any eps of Buffy that hinted at anything similiar.
Willow does put a cross in her room in the early years- remarking how her dad would totally flip out.
My theory- The Buffyverse is so multilayered that numerous deities exist- that there is probably a Deity beyond them all but that It doesn’t get directly involved. That Jesus either was a higher Deity or an Agent. That there is no single Chief of Evil unless it is the First (I could make a case that the Taunting Tempting nature of TFE makes it the exact counterpart of the Serpent in Eden & of the Biblical role of Satan/the Accuser).
Btw, maybe God DOES intervene in the vampire invasion of the Church- via Riley, Buffy & Faith
Hmm, I’d written something typically long-winded here until I realized that pepperlandgirl already said it all. But I’ll add:
That wasn’t my take on it at all. My take was that there is a Christian God, and He is an all-powerful Creator, and that the other characters you meet like Glory and Jasmine and The Powers That Be and The First Evil and so forth, are either demi-gods or aspects of creation. But of course, that’s just my interpretation because it’s closer to what I actually believe, which I think gets back to the OP.
They’re deliberately vague on the whole question. Whatever belief system you have in real life doesn’t is neither confirmed nor negated by anything in the show. Lesser gods and demons and religious symbols aren’t intended to be a real theology, just characters and props for the story. They include a mish-mash of symbols and concepts from religions and literature, whenever they’re appropriate. Even then, they’re often deliberately vague – they use terms like “The First Evil” and “The Powers That Be.” They exist solely to drive the story along or be an opponent to the hero, not to represent the same thing they’d represent in the real world. Crosses and holy water work on vampires because they do in literature, not necessarily because there’s one Christian God. In a sense, it’s kind of like asking why they don’t mention God & the Devil more often in “24”? It’s because when you get right down to it, they’re not that important to the story at hand.
The only times they’ve actually come down one side or the other on the issue, IMO, is when they describe souls and heaven. Souls represent free will and the conscious choice to be good. Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens. Actually, Buffy describes heaven more as a concept than as a place, and it’s never represented in the show. IMO, that lends more significance to it than any of the “hell dimensions” they’ve sent people to. In both cases, a real sense of morality is implied.
I think that’s exactly what’s going on. But I wouldn’t have worded it as accusatory as that; I think it’s exactly the way to go. Overall, it’s a completely secular series – they feel (I’m inferring) that it’s not their place to get into why crosses work on vampires, but it is within the realm of the show to get into concepts like trust & betrayal, friendship, misogynism, free will, what it means to be evil, etc.