Bullies- enforcers of the status quo?

Great Debates
41

How exactly is it uninformed? Is it because I don’t agree with you? Why should I accept your statements without ridiculing them? I would love to see a cite on that study you mentioned. I looked up the study, but I have only found brief summaries. They estimate bullies and chronic victims make up close to 40% of the school population. Do you really think 40% of the kids at a school are dramatically affected by bullying?

The problem with arguing an issue such as this is that most people go into this with a strong bias. There is no way I could ever convince someone who has been beaten up on a daily basis that bullying is not that big a problem. It’s also hard to find people doing studies that don’t presume that bullying is a problem. You can’t sell books and tour the country telling people there is no problem. Either way, I would like to see some more details about that study.

Again, you seem to think my opinion is ignorant solely because you disagree. It’s funny that you deride my “evidence” as weak, yet you think a vague summary of a study (w/o a cite) and strawman attacks are strong evidence?

In my immediate family, I have 6 people involved in education. My mom has taught HS English for close to 25 years. My aunt and uncle have both worked at a University for 30+ years. She is an administrator in charge of an EEO program. He is a professor. A different Aunt is a professor at that university, and has been for about 8 years. My other aunt and uncle both worked at middle and elementary schools. She started as a teacher, became a vice pricipal, and then a principal. He basically followed the same path. He was involved in education for about 30+ years until he retired. She has been in about 25 years (now she is a principal in Florida). Collectively, I’m sure they have seen far more kids than both you and Mr. Eron. They’ve worked in a variety of schools and seen all types of students. I would put up their years of experience against any study you would like to provide. I’ve had conversations with them about this very topic, and they tend to agree with me. Of course it’s a problem when kids are getting put into the hospital, but thats not that common.

In addition to that, I was on several committees dealing with similar issues when I was in school. These were district wide groups that included principals, teachers, board members, and students. To say that my opinion is borne out of ignorance without knowing the first thing about me or what I have experienced is pretty unfair.

My reasoning for thinking that bullying is not that big a problem is partially due to the fact that I was in middle school when school shootings started happening. I saw the ridiculous steps people took to try to “avoid another Columbine”. People were acting like that had more to do with bullying than it had to do with two crazy racist scumbags getting their hands on firearms. I got a little tired of hearing people talk about how bullying was the problem. For every person who has a sob story about how bullying made their life hard, there are tons of people who have few problems adjusting. There are even some who used those memories as motivation to make something of themselves. When my mom went to school, she used to have to deal with mild physical abuse and racial taunts on a daily basis. Kids nowadays are soft by comparison.

We live in an fairly affluent town in central NJ where kid’s parents coddle them. They complain when they get bad grades, and threaten to sue when anything bad happens to them. If the kid gets in a fight, they want to know how they can press charges. Most of them are far too sensitive. Too many kids grew up in the era of bike helmets and timeouts. Where spanking, even from a parent, was a violation of a child’s rights. This has created a large group of people who freak out as soon as life hands them some lemons.

I understand plenty of people will disagree with my position, but to assume there isn’t pleny of valid evidence (anecdotal or otherwise) to bolster my opinion is misguided.

42

Then support your position. tomndebb didn’t give a cite, but he did give some figures. If you think they’re wrong, get some of your own. At the moment it sounds like he’s actually read some studies on the subject and you haven’t.

43

If your relatives have the same attitudes towards bullying as you (that it is no big deal), and if a lot o teachers have this same attitude, no wonder the problem persists.

44

Except that being a bully and a murdering thug are completly different things.

This contains the following passage:

From July 1, 1992 to June 30, 2000, 390 school-associated violent deaths occurred on campuses of U.S. elementary or secondary schools. Of these violent deaths, 234 were homicides and 43 were suicides of school-aged youth (ages 5-19). Away from school during roughly the same period,2 24,406 children ages 5-19 were victims of homicide and 16,735 children committed suicide. In each school year, youth were at least 70 times more likely to be murdered away from school than at school.

To claim bullying led to death in a great number of cases is flat out wrong. This is what I’m talking about when I say people overreact. After Columbine, every parents thought their kid might be shot the next day in school. It’s an irrational fear. While you could argue that some of those suicides are due to bullying, I doubt they make up a great percentage.

That’s a common belief that I have a hard time swallowing. I don’t think most people are bullies because they have low self-esteem, nor does having low self-esteem lead to being a bully.

This whole “shaping children’s egos” thing is relatively new. People had appropriate self esteem before the world began “shaping kids”. I would contend that many more problems are created due the fact that kids are overvalued in today’s society. They have too much money, and are far too revered. But, that may be straying too far off topic.

Of course there were always bullies. That’s my point. People act like the bullies and/or educational environment changed. It didn’t, it’s the kids that got softer, and we’re all worse off for it having happened.

45

I’ve read plenty of studies on the matter. I already explained why you don’t typically see books and studies saying the problem isn’t as big as people perceive it to be. For every book like The Skeptical Environmentalist, there are dozens overstating the case. Bullying is similar in that regard. Keep in mind that there is not money in the former and tons of money for people who claim the sky is falling.

46

What about teachers who are bullies? When I was in grade 7, I had this one teacher who would devote ten minutes at a time to mocking me, or mocking another guy. I didn’t know why he did that and I still don’t.

47

Don’t insult my family again.

Also, what makes you think bullying is relegated to the schoolyard? Teachers have nothing to do with it. Weak people are taken advantage of in almost every aspect of life.

48

I didn’t insult them. I just said that they might have the same attitude towards bullying as you do, i.e. that it isn’t a big deal.

So, what? Why should we allow it to happen in school, just because it can happen elsewhere?

If an adult physically assaults you as an adult, you can call the police and press charges. If the law protects adults, which are in much less need of protection than kids, why shouldn’t we protect kids?

49

I think it would be interesting if any ex-bullies reading this thread dicslose that they used to be bullies in school, and try to explain why they did what hey did, just so that we can get another perspective on why this happens.

Or does no bully actually consider what they did as bullying?

50

I wasn’t the typically bully in that I attacked anyone I perceived as weak. In 4th grade and again in 9th grade there were two kids (different kids in each grade) who were strange ducks and mocked by pretty much everyone including me. I started to feel bad about treating this poor kid in such a bad manner and examined my reasons for doing so. Typically I only picked on him when I had an audience. He was a pretty easy target and it was safe to pick on him and possibly score some social points and it didn’t hurt that I couldn’t be harassed when everyone was busy harassing him. I might have had atypical friends back then because a few of us talked about it and we all came to a similiar conclusion, at least we agreed that picking on him wasn’t cool.

After I figured that out I stopped picking on him. Whenever I spoke to him from then on I didn’t make fun of his strange glasses, his messy hair, or the odd way he spoke. It felt a lot better treating him like a human being then it did treating him poorly. Unfortunately most people still picked on him and a few weeks later during a particularly brutal morning of verbal assaults he broke down and cried in the middle of class. He was still a strange duck but most people in that particular class stopped picking on him after that.

Marc

51

Columbine caused a lot of overreactions by a lot of people on both sides of the issue. I saw at least as many administrations (and school toughs) who used Columbine to “crack down” on the most inoffensive members of the student populations as there were calls for an end to bullying. In fact, more schools initially used Columbine to crack down on loners and misfits than ever cracked down on bullying. The anti-bullying movement in the schools did not really start up in earnest until two or three years after Columbine.
Columbine (where the initial reports that the two acted in response to bullying proved to be in error) simply became a way for each side to rally to the cause. You simply have chosen to place yourself on the side of the people who dismiss bullying.

I’m afraid that I am underwhelmed by your family references, especially since most of them were at the college level and the others fled into administration. As noted earlier, the attitudes of teachers and staff that bullying is “no big deal” has been one of the prime engines keeping the problem alive for such a long time.

Are there some people who have now gone too far in reaction? Probably. I have no problem taking a dispassionate look at the situation and saying that there are people who are overreacting to the problems of bullying, either claiming that it is more pervasive than it is or that it is routinely more violent than it really is. On the other hand, your revulsion at people complaining that their children are not getting good grades is hardly evidence that bullying is overreported or no real problem. You have taken an all or nothing adversarial position on the topic that is not justified by anything you’ve posted.

52

Two of my best friends had major injuries in school due to bullying. One got a broken arm that punctured his skin (needed a plate to fix it) and the other had all of his front teeth knocked in. Both by the same bully. Both times the bully got off lightly because he didn’t “mean” to do it. I am not saying that children should be overprotected by the teachers/parents/admins, but things of this nature shouldn’t happen. Especially twice by the same moron.

53

I think the public schools today are in a double bad situation in dealing with bullies. On the one hand, they are under tremendous pressure to keep kids in school. On the other, they are under the threat of lawsuits, should a student be physically assaulted. As a parent, if my child came home from school with broken teeth, I would immediately force the school to identify the assailant, and press charges. The school has the responsibility to provide a safe atmosphere, and they should be liable.
As far as the bullies themslves, many of them have severe psychological problems, which manifest themseleves with the behavior. Does this give them the “right” to assualt and injure other kids? No way! These little monsters should NOT be allowed to get away with their actions…they only get worse.

54

Something I read about bullies is that they pick on everyone at first. Then the ones, who response to the bulling is the most gratifying to the bully is the ones they continue to pick on the rest of the school year.

It may not be weakness to the bully that attracts them either. Maybe the person gets mad and threatens physical violence and at that point the bully difuses it and laughs it off but the bully really loved it so they continue to push that person to the point of violence.

Also if the bully is popular then you can have many people join in just to be on the good side of the bully. Sometimes, one person is singled out and all the other kids in the class will torment him or her, not because they want to but because everybody else is doing it and not doing it can lead to trouble for them.

Workplace bullying is a real problem as well. Maladjusted kids grow up to be maladjusted adults and frequently bullying, (both adult and childhood) is simply an attempt by the bully to cover up what the bully percives to be their own short comings.

If the bully feels intelectully inferior they will try to tear down the smart kids. If the bully isn’t very good at their job they bully the people who are.

55

You’re dead on there. I was always that big guy who was rather nonviolent all the way to high school.

Thing was, I really wasn’t that nonviolent. Once some bully stepped up and escalated things to the point where it got physical, that’s where things got ugly. You see, my grandfather had been a Golden Gloves champ back in the 1930s, and had taught me how to punch right from about the age of 2 or 3. You wouldn’t believe how much of a difference it makes in those situations just knowing how to throw a proper punch. I dished out more than my share of black eyes and bloody lips and noses between kindergarten and about 7th grade.

The good thing about all that is that people didn’t generally fuck with my nerdier friend as a result of it. You hand out a couple of good beat-downs, and nobody screws with you and your crowd, or at least that’s how it worked back when I was in school.

Like people have said, bullying is completely the big-ape/little-ape dominance game but in human children.

There’s also a certain component of being different. For good or ill, it’s the kiss of death when you’re a certain age. When you’re an adult you can be as eccentric and weird as you like, so long as you obey the law and pay your taxes. As a kid, it marks you as someone to be picked on- not so much out of sheer meanness, but as a way of defining what the “group” is, and what it isn’t.

I think you combine that, with the feeling of respect/fear that someone gets in school for being considered “tough” and it tends to reinforce itself. If the other students weren’t somewhat intimidated by the bully, they wouldn’t do it.

56

I confess to joining in when some of my classmates were picking on others at times, (like I said, I just happened to be the class loser one year-another time, it was someone else), and I think I did it to feel like I was part of the crowd. It somehow made me feel superior, at least on the surface, “at least I’m not like THAT.”

There are a few instances where I turned bully (writing a really nasty, hateful letter to a friend and having her entire family read it) that to this day I really, seriously regret. In some ways, I think it was to impress “the cool kids.” It’s sad that often those who are bullied don’t have compassion for the other victims.

brickbacon, the problem is, bullying can be subtle and very nasty at the same time. No, you don’t always see Columbine type shootings. Most of the time it’s a lot of little things that just start to add up. When I mentioned things that happened to me, individually, they weren’t a big deal. But when all of them were added together, it’s bad.

Ever read the book or see the movie Carrie? It’s a lot like that. The little stuff-tripping, people whispering about you all the time…I so identified with Carrie White(although I didn’t have a bad home life-far from it!). IIRC, King said he was inspired by spending a few years as a high school English teacher. He saw the way kids treat each other, and it features in a lot of his books.
Oh, and as for hitting back? Not a chance. At parochial school, almost all of it was verbal or just shy of hitting (running AT me, but not hitting me, stepping on the back of my shoes, little jabs in the back), and the one or two bullies I encountered in high school would have put my ass in a sling had I tried. And one or two were downright fucking psychotic.

57

I don’t dismiss bullying. Anyone who puts somebody in the hospital is a common thug and should be dealt with accordingly. What I said was that most bullying doesn’t fall into that category. While I don’t discount the emotional trauma caused by bullying, I think it’s mostly due to the fact that kid’s egos are more fragile in today’s society. I think this is often due to ineffective over parenting. Most people I know were picked on at sometime during their childhood. Most of these people got over it.

I’ve looked at many studies on bullying, and many of them estimate approx. 40% (conservatively) of people are either bullied or bullies. Compare that to the numbers of assaults and murders that occur in schools. It’s not that common to see bullying result in serious physical harm. Esp. considering that not all those assaults and murders/suicides are related to bullying.

I *would * be underwhelmed by your references and cites if you had bothered to provide any. My family members have more years teaching in elementary and high school. You should read more carefully. Either way, that doesn’t matter very much. The bottom line is that they have collectively seen know more students than you ever will. Pretending that you are at a better vantage point to diagnose the problem is absurd.

None of them “fled” to administration, that’s what they wanted to do. If you are gonna accuse me of having ignorant opinions, then turn around and say something condescending like that, don’t expect me to put forth the effort to explain myself. You are acting like a child.

The problem has little to do with teachers. The problem is alive because people (at least here in the US) prey on the weak. This will not change anytime soon. To blame it on teachers is wrong. As long as this is an eat what you kill world, there’s gonna be somebody “bullying” someone else.

I didn’t assert that “people complain that their children aren’t getting good grades” to bolster any direct claim I made about bullying. It was done to give some insight as to how many of the parents (in my area) operate. I think that is patently obvious.

58

I think your backpedaling is patently bullshit.

You wandered in with a sweeping generalization from which you have incrementally backed off with each post. Had you meant that some kids today might suffer more than in previous years because they were overprotected, you could have said that with your first post. Even that is a silly overgeneralization, but at least it would have been honest. Heck, I had a neighbor Dallas Cowboy come by to try to “mediate” with the kids in our neighborhood for his nasty little kid around 1960, yet neither of my kids have ever had a parent intervene in any neighborhood or school disputes. Are there a few examples of adults wishing to hover over their kids and settle all their grievances so that the kids never learn how to do it? Sure. Those parents are overwhelmingly outnumbered by the parents who are letting kids get by the way they always have.

The fact that a few schools are actually addressing the issue of bullying–some by overreacting and some by giving ineffective lip service and a few by actually trying to handle the situation–has nothing to do with the topic of this thread and your blanket assertion that such was unnecessary, even with your incremental retractions, was simply a mean-spirited hijack.

59

You’re the only one who is full of shit. I’m not backpedaling at all. I stand by everything I’ve said in this thread. Compare my first post:

with my last post:

What position have I backed off from? I still contend bullying isn’t that big a problem, and is only considered to be a problem because of overzealous parents with weak overly sensitive children. If you want to point to the fact that I included a qualifier (mostly) as a sign that I’m backing off my assertions, I think you are wrong.

It’s funny you say I’m making “silly generalizations”, yet you STILL haven’t bothered to provide any cites or references. It’s easy to sit back and judge. Besides, what makes you such an expert? Are you a teacher? Do you study childhood bullying for a living?

You were ready to create a strawman that you could pick apart without ever asking the details of my family member’s histories. I would like to know what makes you such an expert? Why should anyone trust your opinion above my opinion which is based extensive study and based on having people with over 100 years of teaching experience at my disposal?

It’s also funny to me that you don’t bother to ask other people for cites or label them ignorant when they express an opinion you agree with. Let’s examine a few shall we.

Where are the people saying that Cheesesteak needs a cite to show bullying is an “extension of our primal instinct to be the dominant individual of the group”?

Anybody want a cite that says principals refuse to take action[s] that will stop bullying? Silly generalization? How can he/she defend his/her assertion that math geeks are being bullied or beaten up twice a week? What a slanderous remark. I was a math geek. I was never bullied. How dare they say that. What ignorance!!!

Who says adult bullying is common? Who says bullies turn to verbal harassment? I know plenty of bullies that realized the error of their ways and turned to Christ. How can you say that?

Another unchallenged gem.

The sad part is that all you guys don’t see the irony in ganging up and insulting me in a thread about bullying. Whether it someone asking me

or you posting something like this:

You’re bullying me into accepting bullying is a major problem in school (as opposed to on left-leaning messageboards). You have to appreciate the irony. Only difference between my reaction and yours is that I’m not gonna be a baby about it and claim that your evaluate feedback left me with emotional scars.

PS. I would still love to see that cite.

60

But in your reply to Guinastasia in post #30, you said:

Make up your mind. Get your story straight. Were you bullied or weren’t you?

Tom is right. You’re making this up as you go along.

But you * are * being a baby about it, sulking and whining and calling names and throwing a tantrum because the rest of us find your Neanderthal attitude disgusting.