WTF? I can’t find any insult here. (I also can’t find any bolding here, but no matter which phrase you might be referencing, your claim of “insult” is nonsensical.)
Sorry – being “insulted” by the simple statement “you believe X” is impossible unless you know, at some level, that only a fool or a knave would embrace assertion X.
This thread is so damn depressing. Thank god I decided to never have kids so they won’t have to live through these things.
I agree with Carnick that bullying is part of our culture. Monica Lewinsky, Paula Jones and Linda Tripp were taunted by comedians until they all got plastic surgery. Simon Cowell and Judge Judy are considered heroes in our society. Daytime shows are filled with adults bullying other adults and sometimes kids. We suck. Sadly bullying is a part of life but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try to change it.
I think this is the heart of the matter. The problem is not always visible to anyone but the target. In other bullying threads we’ve had posters express surprise at the severity of some people’s bullying experiences, and deny that such things went on at their schools. I very much doubt that there are schools free from bullying, although there are ones where it never turns brutally violent. But especially at a large school it is easy for a teacher or other students to miss what’s going on, especially if the bullying is focused on just a few specific people.
As you mentioned, teachers are rarely around during passing time, lunch breaks, walks or bus rides to and from school, or in the locker rooms and bathrooms. Most bullying doesn’t occur in the middle of a history lecture, it happens where there’s no authority figure around to see it or in a crowded and chaotic situation where it’s unlikely to be noticed.
Some teachers may turn a blind eye to bullying because they just don’t want to know about it – they don’t want to get involved. There may be a few who actually do tolerate bullying of a student they personally dislike. But I don’t think teachers permit bullying as a way to enforce the status quo. The adolescent-level status quo is of little interest to teachers, and frequently runs counter to the way they would like things to be. Victims of bullying are often quiet and eager to please adults (if they aren’t so before being bullied by their peers they often become so as a reaction to it), just the kind of behavior most teachers would like to encourage.
Following months of inquiry prompted by the deaths of four young soldiers at the Deepcut barracks, parliament’s cross-party Defence Committee concluded bullying and sexual and racial harassment was a problem that was rarely reported to officers.
…
(The Defence Committee concluded) that bullying exists in the armed forces and that it is under-reported.
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The Defence Committee said army top brass had failed to grasp how difficult it was for young recruits to inform officers of bullying and harassment.
“Accessible and independent channels for reporting are essential,” it added.
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/050314/325/fe89m.html
Presumably brickbacon would say these soldiers ‘weren’t strong enough mentally and physically’.
Bullying exists at many levels of society, even against armed soldiers.
As a teacher, one of my highest priorities is to create a safe environment for my students. I went into my first classroom determined to make sure none of my students would face the bullying I did when I was in middle school.
It was much, much harder than I ever imagined, and this was teaching in a very small public school with an extremely supportive principal.
It took nearly half the school year to get the kids to the point where they wouldn’t verbally tear each other down in my classroom - and that was with consequences like public apologies, after school detention, or being sent to the principal for a very serious talking to (which, in the kids’ opinion, was the worst of all. Man, Gary was a great principal.) Even with that, there were instances in which there was bullying - verbal and social - happening just under my nose. The kids had a sixth sense for figuring out when I was occupied or distracted.
Bullying would carry over after school hours and off campus, places where no one from school had any say. Parents would get involved in vendettas. I knew one lady who pretty much encouraged her daughter to play mind games with any other girl she liked. It was depressing as hell.
Even though we were a small campus with dedicated teachers (well, except a couple, but that’s life) and savvy administrators, we still had instances of violence - usually with the target attacking the bully. In one instance, both boys were out of sight of the campus supervisor. The popular boy made the mistake of mocking his target where none of his friends would back him up, and the target boy nailed him in a tackle and nearly throttled the life out of him before a teacher happened to glance out a window, see what was happening, and rush in to break it up. In the second case, in the library - where there was NO adult supervision, so there should have been NO students, but someone messed up - one girl sent a note reading “maybe if you stuck a pin in your cheek, some of your fat would leak out.” The recipient put a smack down on the writer that would have had a WWF crowd cheering. In the former case, the target was suspended for several days. In the latter, the target got one day, while the original instigator got three. The teachers were unanimous in their support of the targets - while also trying to do the proper “now, violence is never the answer” attitude.
There is no easy answer to bullying. It takes cooperation by the parents, the students, the teachers, and the administration. One part doesn’t do its job, and it can fall apart.
Ah, but some of us learned that violence was the answer, the only useful answer. Report the bully, and you 1) get ignored by the “powers that be” 2) are told to “be tougher” and "take care of business 3) get in another fight for turning the bully in.
Then you get punished for doing any of the above while the trouble maker skates off scot free.
Punishing the target for reacting is wrong. Usually by that time, the target has already figured out that nobody is going to help. So, you are just reinforcing the idea that they are born to be door mats. Punishment should be reserved for the one who instigated the problem, not the one who was forced into reacting. Sometimes, violence is the answer. Every living thing has the “Darwinistic” right to defend against attack, by any means necessary. It is hardwired in as instinct. To simply say it is not the answer, without making a real commitment to “justice”, without providing any real alternative is hogwash. It is laziness.
The problem is sometimes when people fight back, they don’t succeed-they get hurt even worse.
One of my bullies probably had about twenty pounds on me or more, as well as several friends. If I had even tried to get a hit on her, she would have pounded me into the floor.
If you don’t see that then you obviously aren’t reading my posts. Your personal experience gives you no insight as to how big a problem bullying is on a macro level. Sure, you may know the pain of getting beaten up, but that doesn’t give you a greater understanding of how often, how severe, and how traumatic the bullying other people experience is. I have looked at the big picture, so far you haven’t claimed to have done so in any systematic or clinical way.
From post #41:
Please read more carefully. I didn’t explain it in the detailed fashion I did later for two reasons. First, the post was already quite long by the time I got to that part. Second, I don’t feel the need to give in depth information on everything I’ve been through; especially when no one else has been asked to do so.
Except that your analogy is seriously flawed. First, nowhere near 90% of people who have been bullied think it’s horrible. Damn near everyone I know has been bullied at one time or another, and most of them take it in stride.
Second, many of these people (in this thread) are speaking from a biased perspective. In the same way you can’t rely solely on rape victims to diagnose how big a problem sexual assault is in a given area, you can’t rely on people who have been bullied to the point of hospitalization to give an dispassionate assessment of the problem as a whole.
I linked to the number of crimes (murders and assaults) that happen in US schools. The numbers don’t support the assertion many people are beaten to the extent that they needed hospitalization. That is an anomaly.
I liken it to the atmosphere created right after 9/11. People were saying how air travel is unsafe and terrorism is a rational fear. Of course, the stats don’t support those claims. While I don’t think many of the people in this thread are lying, I think they are biased to the point that the conclusions they’ve drawn are tragically flawed.
I agree with your assessment, except for the last part. I have never said bullying
doesn’t exist. I said it wasn’t a big a problem many people make it out to be. Please stop putting words in my mouth.
Alright, if you are talking about mild bullying in 6th grade then I will agree its not usually going to scar people for life. But I do not think many of them would be opposed to trying to stop the problem.
The argument that people who are bullied to the point of hospitalization are not representative is probably true (at least it was where I grew up, there were only 15 or so people who got it really, really bad and it wasn’t seriously violent for them), but I still do not think you will find many people who do not think trying to remove bullying from school is something that we should shoot for, or that there are still hundreds of thousands of young, defenseless people (of the millions who are bullied) who are ending up mentally scarred for life each year due to bullying. Even if it doesn’t scar for life and result in trust and self esteem issues for life in 70% of the cases (which is believable in mild cases) neither do alot of bad things people have to go through like a serious breakup or a layoff, after 10 years most people are probably over them. It doesn’t mean we shouldn’t devote energy to solving them. Even if only 20% of bullying situations result in serious emotional problems on the part of the victim, that is still 20% of the 60 million k-12 students in the US, 12 million individuals who may end up victimizers themselves or end up hurting their own families or themselves.
I do not know where you stand on the issue though. Are you under the impression that anti-bullying activists want to create an oversensitive 1 strike and you’re out scenario due to irrational fears of another Columbine? You came across as someone who didn’t want to even try to stop bullying, which is to a large extent why alot of people here are attacking.
By hurting their families, I mean their families having to watch their child go from outgoing and happy to withdrawn, depressed and combattive, not them becoming physically violent with their parents. When you include those affected indirectly by bullying (including family members and friends who have to watch the results) the numbers of scarred and damaged people is probably 2-3x higher than just the victims themselves.
Perhaps I should have been more specific. I have no idea what happens in the UK. In the US, all the information I seen leads me to believe bullying is not the problem it’s made out to be. You are certainly in a better position to assess the extent of the problem in the UK.
I don’t contend my first hand experiences with bullying has any applicability. I do think the study I’ve done on the issue does. I’m sorry to hear about your classmate.
Considering I’ve been a peer mediator, and have generally been described by people who know me as “easy to talk to”, I doubt many people would have a terribly difficult time confiding in me. I can see why you might think that, but all the evidence available to me states otherwise.
First, this is for the UK, whose bullying situation I know little about.
As I look at this, I think it would depend how you define something being a problem. If 50% of kids think homework is useless, is it, in fact, useless? Does it become a problem solely because some people think it is? I don’t think that is always the case.
Also, I see a few problem with this site. First, they clearly advocate the position that bullying is a problem. They are biased, perhaps they are right, but I think they are biased. Second, it says 31K called the hotline. Does that mean 31K different people called or that they received 31K calls? I suspect the latter is true, making the number of people who reported a problem smaller. Also, is the 31K high when comparing it to the total number of students in UK schools? I did a quick search that didn’t help me find exact enrollment numbers, so anything you could provide would be appreciated.
If someone states that you are part of a problem they feel is huge deal, and does it in an terse manner, you can be pretty sure it is intended to be an insult.
You forgot to mention this part.
“Coroners ruled one of the deaths a suicide, recorded open verdicts on two and have yet to rule on the fourth. Forensic experts have offered differing opinions but some say the gunshot wounds were unlikely to have been self-inflicted.”
Assuming these people didn’t really commit suicide, how is being murdered an example of bullying? How is that example a sign of its pervasiveness in the UK army?
Besides, this cite only posits that bullying exists in the army and that it’s underreported. Two things I’ve never denied. My only claim is that it’s not the big deal many people make it out to be, and is typically innocuous. Considering the fact that this article doesn’t state that any of these cadets killed themselves as a direct result of bullying, I can’t see how that invalidates or weakens anything I’ve stated.
I used to take on people far bigger than that, anywhere from 40 to 100 pounds heavier. The trick was to toss out any idea of fighting “fair”. A kick to the groin, a thumb in the eye, anything and everything. A roundhouse punch to the side of the head will drop anyone if it connects. I learned that not fighting back made it worse. “Cheating” takes care of the size difference.
I think 20% is astoundingly high, but that’s really not your point. I agree with you to a large extent. However, I think if I were to rate the problems that exist in the US school system, bullying would be pretty far down the list. I think there are plenty of things we should try to tackle before bullying.
I think you are right with your last point, and perhaps I should have been a little more clear and chosen my words more carefully.
I don’t think anti-bullying activists want to create an oversensitive 1 strike and you’re out scenario, I seen many people tirelessly work toward that goal. Of course, not all people are like that, but many of the people I see advocating your position are way to sensitive. I don’t see a need to deem any childhood aggression as something unconscionable.
brickbacon -
While I wholeheartedly agree that parents are coddling their kids too much these days, I think you’re misguided in applying it to bullying. When person after person comes forward with their own personal horror story, you keep responding that “your case isn’t common.” How many reports is it going to take to change your mind? It’s common enough to warrant action.
Adults have a tendency to compartmentalize their childhood, put it on a pedestal, and idolize it. They forget the bad events, and invent coming of age myths such as schoolyard bullying. Maybe it wasn’t as bad “in the old days” but it certainly is now. Deadly school violence is on the rise, as well as teen suicide. Bullying isn’t the sitcom version of “meet me after class in front of gym foureyes” anymore. Usually it’s much more insidious, covert, and persistent. Kids are tormented so much that they get ulcers. When we leave it to them to stand up for themselves, it only makes matters worse (Columbine is the extreme). Besides, bullying begets bullying. I’ve known several people who were victims of bullies in school who grew up to be bullies themselves when they got their first taste of power. If we want to ever end crime, we have to stop it where it starts - in the playground.
The posts about how you’ve got a bunch of educators in your family and you read some articles about bullying when you were a high school student? Yeah, I read those posts. I remain underwhelmed, not just because you can’t produce a cite after all that extensive study, but because you haven’t done anything to tie your “special” experience and research to the opinions you’ve expressed here. Instead you’ve basically just said “Here’s my opinion, and I’m right because I have super special experience that no one else could possibly match!”
It’s odd that you think you can judge what my personal experience and my formal studies have or have not given me insight into, as I have yet to say a word on the subject. There’s a reason for that – it’s not necessary. I feel my above post on bullying stands pretty well on its own without my autobiography attached to it.
See, the purpose of a debate, which you seem to have missed, is not to brag about yourself or your family background. It is to present and defend an argument on a given subject. You’ve done a pretty poor job of that, although you’ve put up a good show in the “Most Pathetic Appeal to Authority” contest. I’ve been trying to help you here, as unlikely as that may seem, because although I have no reason to care about you I do have reason to care about the quality of discussion around here. Sadly, despite my special experience as a rhetoric tutor (are you all impressed?) I seem to have accomplished nothing but aiding a hijack away from the rather interesting OP.
No one else in this thread has made repeated claims of having special personal experience that give his opinions more weight than anyone else’s. No one else in this thread has your obnoxious habit of dismissing everyone else’s experiences as a “uncommon” and therefore worthless either.
You really are a joke.
I tend to agree with a lot of what you have said. However, the reason why I feel comfortable telling people that their experiences aren’t common is because all the studies I’ve looked at, and all the conversations I’ve had with people who are in education lead me to believe that such stories are relatively rare. If something is statistically uncommon, meeting a handful of people who have experienced it shouldn’t invalidate comprehensive study. At the very least, one should be able to admit this message board does not does not accurately reflect society in a number of ways.
I would have to disagree with your implication that Columbine was caused by bullying. I am not aware of any credible evidence to corroborate your statement.
Good, you managed to make a strong statement of opinion without attempting to buttress it with boasts about your family’s centuries of experience in comedy or the long years you spent being hit with cream pies at clown college. That’s a big first step.
Now for your next assignment. Give the title and author of a serious study on bullying. Anything from a peer-reviewed educational or psychological journal will do. Summarize the article, and explain how it supports your position on the relative insignificance of the problem of bullying in American public schools.
Alternately, you may attempt to defend your position without reference materials, but this requires that you give up appealing to your own authority on the mysterious bullying research of a vast but nebulous body of nameless authors.