Phe. I’m not in the least offended by public breastfeeding. Let me state that first.
However, I can see how somebody could be.
Nakedness is viewed as taboo by our culture. The US was settled by Quakers from Europe who were strict puritans. Of course they would probably have little issue with breastfeeding - god’s purpose…etc. Then we throw in some good old Victorian values - the time when curved table legs could be thought “improper”. The miniskirt was considered shocking in the 60’s. When I was a teenager (and I’m not thirty, quite yet) girls in high school rarely wore the kind of tight pants, thongs, belly shirts and various obvious piercings you can see at the mall these days.
A woman exposing her breast so that a baby can suck milk out of it? I guess I can accept that a reactionary, old fashioned, outspoken busybody WOULD be offended.
I’m certainly not, and I think breast feeding is perfectly fine in a restaurant, at the gym, on the bus, at the bowling alley, hanging from the monkey bars and on the bouncy castle.
My personal feeling is that public breastfeeding is considered “icky” or inappropriate by various people primarially because of the sexualization of the breasts in western culture. As with most things which are used for sexual gratification a taboo has grown up around them. This taboo does not exist elsewhere, for example, in some of the native tribes of Africa. Remember the old National Geographic magazines? They would go to Africa and find these isolated tribes and the women didn’t even wear tops, didn’t consider the breasts even immodest. They covered their bottoms, but the tops just hung out. Breasts were no big deal.
Take a look at some of the comments in the thread. Look at how the breast is described by the people who find it inappropriate to breastfeed in public. As an “udder” or a “milk-engorged breast” or with some other appelation which negatively describes the, normally attractive, breast. Breasts are supposed to be attractive, and when bared they are supposed to signal sexual activity. Breastfeeding is kind of like a tiny coitus interruptus for these people. They see a boob, think “Yea SEX!” and then see a baby latch on to the boob and now they(except the tiny minority who find breastfeeding incredibly sexy, and let’s please, PLEASE not go there!) have to reign in the sexual impulse. That isn’t pleasant in most cases.
Oh I’ve been plenty stupid in the past. 
I’ll probably be plenty stupid in the future too. I’m not being stupid in the present though. I think I’ve got my hands on the last issue which seems to be the root of the disconnect between us. We both understand the issue just fine, but we’re arguing at different levels. I’m going hypothetical, and you’re going practical. Let’s look at the example you just quoted.
To which you replied
Re-read my statement again and show me where I said a court would rule against the owner. The odds against such a ruling are very high, but there is nothing in the mechanics of the law which would make it an impossibility. In the texts of the law, and in precedent, and other things, there are plenty of rules which make it a virtual impossibility. Still, the mechanics of the situation is what I was getting at, not an assertion about a particular hypothetical situation. Arguing what would or would not happen if a resturant owner demanded patrons stand on their heads and sing “Born to be Wild” is not as interesting, or relevant, as arguing what COULD happen.
Thirty years or so ago a woman was ejected from a public pool for breastfeeding. There was no law explicitly protecting(and thus granting “right” status) to breastfeeding in public. Breastfeeding is a natural activity, healthy, reasonably hygenic, and is not lewd. The court found a right, previously unprotected, to breastfeed. The owner’s restrictions were struck down and they were punished.
There is nothing inherent in the “Born to be Wild” case which would protect it from a similar fate. There is nothing in the mechanics of the judicial system which make it an impossibility either. It is higly unlikely, given the current realities and laws, but it is not impossible.
Enjoy,
Steven
People’s attitudes are slow to change with laws/rights (sometimes they never change). I wouldn’t be surprised if it were just easier for places like BK to start offering more private seating (not for the breastfeeding moms, but for the whiners who can’t stand to see it).
And what’s so wierd about finding a woman breastfeeding sexy? Is giving birth unsexy? Is pregnancy unsexy? Is conception unsexy?
Um…yes. It is. I know…I was in the room.
No to all of the others, though.
shudder
Didn’t say it was weird. Just didn’t want to turn this thread into a TMI thread about fetishes involving lactation. It has been hijacked sufficiently already IMHO
Enjoy,
Steven
People who:
[ul]
[li]Refer to women “whipping out a breast” in order to breastfeed[/li][li]Complain about seeing the naked breast of a nursing mother[/li][li]Suggest that nursing moms “simply” pump and use bottles[/li][li]Suggest that babies be fed bottles of cow’s milk (especially these people)[/li][/ul]
are only showing their ignorance.
In other circumstances, I’ve let complete strangers gaze upon my entirely naked body, yet even I don’t “whip out” my breasts to nurse. I know of nobody who does so. On the contrary, the nursing moms I know are generally modest, as well as frightened to death that some boor will give them crap for feeding their hungry babies.
Public nursing does not really involve exposure of the breast in most cases. In order to even see a sliver of breast, you’d have to be within a foot of the mother, and looking down on her. From a normal point of view, a nursing mother pretty much looks like she’s holding a sleeping baby in her lap.
To co-opt CrazyCatLady’s analogy, it would be like a restaurant patron at the next table scooting their chair up next to yours and craning their neck to eavesdrop on your quiet conversation, then demanding that you be made to stop, because you’re offending them.
Even though some women can pump, and some nursing babies take bottles, there are many who can’t do these things. And even if you can, it is a huge investment of time and effort to pump enough milk, store it, transport it at a safe temperature, bring it to a potable temperature, and feed the baby. Then you have to wash and sterilize the pump and bottle as well. It is not the equivalent of throwing some Cheerios into a Tupperware, as some people seem to think.
Finally, if you are so uninformed as to suggest that an infant be fed cow’s milk, you just need to stay out of any discussion of breastfeeding until you’ve done some basic homework.
On a different note, the way our society is set up, either women need to be able to nurse in public, or they would have to seriously curtail their normal activities. Babies do not get hungry according to adult schedules, so there’s no way to do basic errands without sometime needing to feed the baby. And most establishments don’t provide decent accomodations for nursing that are private. Trust me, when I’m at Nordstrom, I use their lovely private lounge to nurse. A fast food restaurant bathroom is not an appropriate place to feed an infant, so nursing moms who want to grab a bite while out don’t have much alternative than the dining room.
I think breastfeeding provides enough of a public health benefit that it deserves some protection, and the irrational discomfort of some should be overriden. Fortunately, most states have come to the same conclusion.
I understand what you’re saying, but do they really need to breastfeed during the 15-20 minutes they’re likely to be in Burger King? They can’t breastfeed before, or after, in private? I can’t imagine someone breastfeeding say, at a court appearance, or a job interview, on a hot date, or at a funeral, so why is it necessary at the BK Lounge?
Take it up with the baby. They tend to be the ones who decide when they’re hungry. I find it faily amazing…nah, actually I find it typical of your logic that you’d rather a baby went hungry than your delicates sensibilities be offended.
Here’s a tip - try looking away.
To follow up on Gary Kumquat, you cannot force a baby to nurse “before” you go somewhere for someone else’s convenience. They eat when they’re hungry. Not before, not after. They do not have the ability to use “foresight” to know that they should eat now because they won’t be able to later, and they do not have the ability to wait.
As for how long a child should nurse, the WHO recommendation states that children should be nursed for at least 12 months. Nursing a child until he weans himself – which can happen at any age, and largely depends on other factors, many of them emotional – isn’t at all unusual for those committed to giving their child the greatest amount of the benefit possible, and is de rigeur outside of the industrialized countries where the longer a child nurses, the better chance he has at surviving his childhood.
The wonderful thing about breastmilk is that it changes in composition as a child ages, and depending upon the frequency of nursing. Even a 24 month old, who is walking and talking and doing all kinds of things on his own can derive benefits from nursing, both nutritional and emotional.
Once again, opponents are failing to come up with any argument against public nursing that doesn’t include words like “blech.” Face it folks, your position is bankrupt. Your mores are whacked. If you want to go get offended about some breasts, call Pamela Anderson, and leave the eating babies out of your head games.
I had no idea there were so many people that were so prudish here.
If you’re grossed out by breast-feeding, fine. I just find it very, very odd.
It seems as demented as a person that I used to know that was offended by Bonsai trees. Cruel to the tree or somesuch.
Bizarre.
Dude, whether you buy it or not doesn’t matter.
So lots of babies feed from bottle and breast with no problems. My daughter wouldn’t take a bottle until she was 7 months old. We could feed her with a bottle, but it mostly consisted of her fighting it and swallowing the milk that happened to fall into her mouth. I left her with a babysitter once, and she wouldn’t take a bottle the entire time I was gone. We started to introduce a bottle at about 1 month, it took 6 months for her to decide that bottles were okay.
So you know many women who are able to pump and freeze, what does that mean? It means that you know women who have no problem pumping. I know a lot of women who pump and freeze as well. I also, as a nursing mom who is in a couple of support groups for nursing women, know of many women who simply cannot produce milk for a pump, or can’t produce enough to make it worth their while.
I had no problem whatsoever feeding my daughter. When it came to pumping, I’d have to sit there pumping for half an hour to get a 6 ounce bottle. Electric pumps are supposed to be better, but good ones run upwards of $200. Do I have an extra $200 so that I can buy a piece of equiptment that I’ll rarely use? No. Are you going to give it to me, so that I can give my chld a bottle when I’m in public? No? Didn’t think so.
What is the reason to do that from the beginning anyhow? I can understand if you are a working mother who needs to get your baby used to a bottle, but as a mom who had the option of staying home, there was absolutely no reason for my daughter to drink from a bottle, especially when pumping was such a pain and nursing was so easy.
Believe me, when I took my daughter out in public and she got hungry, the last thing I wanted to do was cause a scene. The last thing I wanted was some asshole coming up to me and calling me names and berating me because they happened to catch a tiny glimpse of chest flesh. I usually fed my daughter in changing rooms, but if there wasn’t one available, and the only other choice was the restroom, you’d better believe she was getting fed wherever I could sit comfortably and be somewhat away from people. I spent a lot of dinners in the back booth at restaurants.
How about next time you see a woman nursing her baby in a restaurant, and it offends your delicate sensibilities, you take your dinner and go sit, fully clothed, on the public toilet, amidst the smells and general atmosphere of a public restroom, and see how well you enjoy your meal. This is ridiculous.
Just because you don’t know of anyone who “whips out” their breast to nurse and all the nursing moms you know are modest, doesn’t make it so for everyone. To assume that anyone who disagrees with you is “ignorant” is quite ignorant as well.
I’m a nurse and tend to notice when people are doing things of a medical nature in public, and I have seen many women “whip out” their bare breast with no regard for anyone else and feed their child. I’ve seen this in airports, restaurants, the DMV, and several other places as well. And no, it isn’t just in racy Las Vegas where I live. I’ve seen it in the midwest where I am originally from and down south as well.
Opponents of what??? Personally, I’ve never said women should not be able to breast feed in public. And the last time I checked, I’m entitled to my right to an opinion the same as women are entitled to their right to breast feed so I don’t need to come up with any argument for how I perceive anything. And head games? Ehhh, wtf? How on EARTH is saying that someone doesn’t really like seeing a nursing child a head game? I think some people in this post are making wayyyyyy too much out of this whole thing.
My position is simply that I find it thoroughly absurd to demand an apology and I find it funnier when people think a forced apology isn’t good enough. How on earth can ANYONE be comforted by an apology you have to force someone to give you? Either they are sorry or they are not.
I’ve seen women who are modest and discreet when feeding their child, and I’ve seen women who are vulgar and rude when feeding their child. I wasn’t dining at Burger King the night this happened, and I dare say that none of you were either so no one is able to say which category this woman fell into. To sit here and be snotty and snide with people over a situation none of us has real details about is pretty ridiculous. I’ve seen people calling each other ignorant, without morals, prudish, etc etc over a difference of opinion. So far, I don’t recall anyone saying it should be against the law or that the woman should have been FORCED to leave the restaurant or go into the restroom.
To me, it isn’t much different than being at dinner one night with my friend who is a diabetic and was testing her blood sugar. The sight of it was making another patron a little squeamish so the waitress asked her to do it in private. No big deal. After all, we’re talking about bodily fluids. Breast milk is a bodily fluid and it can be a matter of being sanitary. A mother who is HIV positive can pass that to her child through breast milk. Maybe it’s because I’m a nurse, and to me I can see where anything “bodily” can fall under the medical category and make anyone uncomfortable. I guess I’m a little too considerate because if I were making someone uncomfortable, I’m not above removing myself from a situation and handling my business in private. Some people simply are not worried about such things.
They eat when they’re hungry, I see. What if they’re hungry in Church, or at Grandma’s funeral? Do they eat then, too?
Or what if Mom is driving? Surely breastfeeding Moms take car trips as long as 15-20 minutes. Does baby eat then?
It may be legal for mommy to whip it out and start chow time, and it’s also legal for me to be offended, and to run the hell out of that restaurant and never come back. . .
FTR, the wife is pregnant, and feeding time will be done at HOME, or in private.
I am one of those nursing women who demanded a managerial apology under similar circumstances.
I could have made my baby wait.
I could have gone to the toilet to feed him.
I could have let the illegal harrassment stand unchallenged.
I could have left the place humiliated.
I decided instead to take a stand against the kind of ignorance I see on this thread. It’s not about my rights, or my baby’s rights, or your comfort level. It’s not about my discretion or lack thereof. It’s about my desire to make a change in our screwed-up cultural mindset that fails to see the irony when a loud-mouthed drunk sitting under a wet t-shirt titty poster in a sports bar can loudly protest against a woman nursing a baby between bites at a nearby table… feeding her baby as babies are supposed to be fed. It’s about normalizing public breastfeeding by educating one ignorant restaurant staff at a time. It’s about feminism, the celebration of women’s bodies doing exactly what they are designed to do, and about occasionally letting our wimmin folk leave home and walk around out in public…even if they do have a babe in arms.
Seriously, after nursing my first for 32 months and my second for 6 (and counting), this has become a non-issue for me.
Unless, of course, someone wants to make it an issue. Then I’ll be glad to brush off my activist’s cape.
fatmac98, better keep your wife away from women like me. She may end up nursing your child and living a normal life…you know, like going shopping, or to church, or out to eat. Oh, wait. According to manufacturers of artificial baby milk, only bottle feeding mothers can do those things.
Have her email me if you dare.
if hungry baby isn’t being fed, hungry baby then cries. loudly.
and constantly.
So, apparently, you wish to require that the mommy that put your delicate sensabilities over the needs of her child.
yet, if she refrains from feeding her child and the child then starts screaming and crying, the manager will yet again be called to have her ‘do something’ to stifle the child’s noise, because again, of the needs of the other patrons.
perhaps you should only go to ‘adults only’ Burger Kings in the future, so that your comfort level will be maintained.
[
Also from the article: “[Rob] Doughty [vice president for strategic communications] said Burger King’s new policy had been in the works and wasn’t timed to defuse the threatened protest.”
Riiiiiiight.
So, apparently, it’s about Farmwoman’s feminist political crap.
Five pages of claims about the absolute need to feed that child within the fifteen minutes at BK–gotta feed the baby when he’s hungry, right? No political agenda, right? Just think of the children! Bullshit.
**
Apparently that’s no longer possible, according to Mr. B’s link. Ah, well. While I did like their flame-broiled burgers, ever since they changed their french fries I haven’t been going anyway, so no loss to me.
Apparently you wish to deny the mother the opportunity to feed her child 'cause it’d offend you. And that some how is a feminist agenda? probably liberal too.
I’m sure BUrger King will regret the loss of you as a customer.
By the way, my company has a similar policy to BK’s, so, you’ll want to avoid us, too. Darn the bad luck.