Breastfeeding in the Church sancutary is coarse, and gross, see above.
So, then, breasfeeding mothers who belong to churches without a private nursery are supposed to stop attending services, I suppose?
Well, let’s see, I could take my pastor and co-cocongregants’ opinions on the “coarseness” and “grossness” of nursing my child while continuing to be a part of the worship services at my church, or I could take milroyj’s.
Guess whose I give more credence? :rolleyes:
Heh, I nursed my son at his own baptism. He was sick that day and otherwise inconsolable and his screaming was interrupting the service. No way was I taking him outside during his own blessing mass. Afterwards in the greeting line, I had three different older women comment on how good it was to see so many new mothers going back to the breast, and how well-bonded the baby and I seemed, and how “lovely” a new baby looked nursing. It made me feel proud.
I guess I could have hunkered down in the bathroom (denying its use to everyone else in doing so), or gone out onto the patio (in broad daylight, how shocking!), or even just fed him at home (In my prim and proper confinement) on the off chance that milroy or someone who thinks like him was present and horrified by my acts.
But that’s the great thing about stupid, unreasonable, and completely inappropriate opinions–they make the people who have them really easy to disregard.
milroyj You have the right to your OPINIONS. I have the right to believe differently than you. I also have the right to tell you to LOOK THE OTHER WAY, if some act offends you so much, but the act is not illegal.
You are just as self righteous as that prep who told me I “had” to cover my wound because the sight of it offended her. She actually felt that her “emotional” discomfort somehow was more important than my MEDICAL need to keep the wound dry!
Here’s the news, emotional needs in this case do NOT rank higher than physical needs, which eating is, much as you try to trivialize it, and pounce on a breastfeeder’s words to shred them.
Get over it, try to mature, or never have children, because you WILL be face to face with these issues if you do. I’d like to see you try to tell a new mom not to do the things to nurture her child that every fiber of her being is telling her to do. You’d not fare well I’d posit. If you did suceed in “keeping your wife in line”, than I pity your wife, and child(ren).
It’s been argued in other threads that if one’s actions (or even thoughts) are offensive to another person, one should stop doing/believing it. In fact, it has been suggested that to not do so is “evil”. Some people find public breastfeeding to be offensive. So stop it, otherwise you’re evil, by the same logic.
Thought Crime! Thought Crime! snort You do tend to take people’s thoughts a bit further than intended, don’t you?
I’m not a robot, I can think for myself. I can look at an action, and posit intent. A woman breastfeeding a child only intends to nurture her offspring, therefore the action is not evil. (I have no children atm, they are dead, just fyi. I breastfed them in public, but often you never would have known it.)
In this case, according to the “arguement” you just presented, it’s “evil” for a person to try to self righteously super-impose their “emotional needs” over another beings actual, physical needs.
Babies need much more energy than we do, and have not “learned”, nor are they physically able to “wait” to eat. They are not as physically developed as an adult, so therefore their physical needs come first. Read that carefully before you pounce on it to try to use against me.
Never had a kid, so breastfeeding is a nonissue for me but…
Anyone who would be offended by the sight of a mother feeding her child in the manner that God and Nature intended has some very seriously wierd hangups that they need to get over.
Being subjected to the sound of a baby screaming and screaming and screaming because the mother refuses to attend to it’s needs…
now, that’s offensive.
Give it the breast, woman, so I can eat my Whopper Jr. in peace.
I’ll add, according your arguement, I was evil to fold my sock down and leave my wound open to the air, rather than do as the person asked, and fold the sock up and cover the wound? Is this what you are saying?
That I should have covered a weeping wound over with a sock, and likely re-bred the strep infection that I’d just gotten over, all so a classmate would not have to catch a glimpse of it as she was bench pressing in P.E. class?
Bullshit!!! It took a YEAR for that wound to heal. It hurt a lot, I had to use crutches to get around while it was infected, and at one point I was in danger of losing my leg from just above the knee. The physician told me that if I covered the wound, I’d risk re-infection, and chance losing my leg if it got bad enough. (Serious risk, I have arthritis, my immune system is compromised in the first place, I am not even supposed to be around immunized babies.)
That girl’s discomfort (“emotional need”) certainly was not of higher importance than my actual physical need to air my wound. Further, it was evil of HER to demand that I cover it so she “wouldn’t have to see it”.
The above applies to breastfeeding too.
And again, milroyj, what about statues and paintings of the Madonna breastfeeding?
What does a church do then?
Slow down, chief. I was with you up to this. I am very pro-breastfeeding mothers’ rights- I was very pleased that my wife was able to breastfeed all of our boys, and would recommend it to anyone.
But you have to admit that exposing a nipple is a bit different than airing out a ‘weeping wound.’ People are sensitive about exposure to other people’s blood, and frankly, if you are unable to work out around people without exposing them, then you need to make other arrangements. As opposed to the breastfeeding issue, I think that the weight of law is behind my position on this. Though painting anyone in this debate with the label ‘evil’ seems silly.
Of course, if I am being whooshed, just say so.
And getting to “hold the pickles”?!:rolleyes:
True Blue Jack
No, the wound was not bleeding, it had a non-too-solid scab on it, but it was oozing slightly. I had no choice in the matter, I HAD to attend the class, in order to graduate High School.
It was just damp enough that if I’d pulled the sock over it, (and sweated…) the sock would have ended up being enmeshed in the scab, because the scab would solidify into the sock, so I’d have to pull off the scab to get the sock off, opening the wound and inviting infection. (The sock would have helped the scab dry out.) It was not infectious to others, or anything like that, it just was not nice to look at, and even worse to feel on your shin. (Bone deep wounds on limbs with poor circlulation are like that.)
I knew of no other way to describe the state of the shin succinctly. Sorry for you confusion, Stonebow
Yes, the prep WAS being "evil’ when she asked this of me. I’d had the wound for 6 months, had just gotten off crutches, and over a BAD infection. All she had to do was turn her head the other way as she was bench pressing, because we did our excercises in “shifts” according to groups.
My group was ahead of hers in rotation, so she knew where I would be, and could easily take steps to avoid it. I was not waving my leg under her nose and laughing as her face turned green, I was minding my own business, working out as best I could. (No one else in the class of 30+ females complained about my wound, though I suspect they all practiced “selective veiwing”. They were mature enough to “live and let live”.)
The same applies to those who feel squeamish about breast feeding. If you see a mother with a cranky baby, and no bottles in sight, look away breast feeding is likely to occur.
Hmm, I’ll go a bit deeper into the thought I am trying to bring home. Incidental exposure of something that you might find uncomfortable veiwing does not give you license to impose your sensibilities on the other person.
If the other person is not breaking the law, is obviously not going out of their way to deliberately make people uncomfortable, (There’s a big grey area here…) and is in essence minding their own business, i. e. being peaceable, (if defiant in some cases) than the veiwer should look the other way, knowing that others have done the same thing for them in varying situations.
We all must take steps to promote harmony, and get along. Sometimes that means just not looking at something that bothers you, because it would “do more harm, than good” to speak up.
It would be chaos if everyone were allowed to insist that things they found “coarse” “crude” or “gross” etc. be covered up so they wouldn’t be offended.
Can you imagine the scope of that? It’s better that the people learn to avert their eyes at such times, so that society can continue to function with some amount of smoothness.
It’s about courtesy, and citizenship. It’s about being mature, and realizing that the world doesn’t reveolve around you, and that you can’t always get your way, especially in cases where the other person is beng peaceable, breaking no laws, and possibly taking actions that will eventually help benefit society. (Or doing things to meet physical/medical needs.)
Just look away, if a mother breastfeeding bothers you so much. Apply this thought to many other things that you will encounter in day to day life, and realize that other’s do the same for you.
Let me further emphasize, that the phrase “doing things to meet physical/medical needs” applies to actions that are not illegal, and don’t present a big risk (of infection/physical harm) to others who are present while it’s done.
Eating certainly falls within those boundaries, as long as it’s within the “normal” human parameters. Nursing, Vegetarianism, Omnivore, Ice Cream/Jello post dental visit etc, all are within the “normal” boundaries of human eating, and so are "protected’. So are things like leaving a wound uncovered so it can finish healing, and any number of “other” things which are necessary for that individual to be well.
Like I said…slow down. You’re not doing your breastfeeding argument any favors by conflating it with a situation that many reasonable ‘non-evil’ people will have issues with.
Quite a few posters have done a good job explaining why breastfeeding a unique action that is different from other ‘natural functions’ that are not permitted in public (urinating, defecating, ect.)…but you are attempting to make the connection again, all in the name of justifying your own actions.
I am sorry, but open wounds are not healthy for other people to be around. Frankly, I don’t give a fig for your own well-being so much as the chance that you are contaminating my space. Getting blood, pus, or other seepage on my table, chair, weight bench, nautilus machine, etc. are not acceptable to me. Perhaps only one young lady said anything to you, but it’s okay, because everyone else knew to give you a wide berth? That’s the same sort of self-centered thinking that fuels much of the anti-breastfeeding argument.
That might make me insensitive, but I don’t see how your needs trump mine in this instance.
milroyj, do you think that Jesus would have asked a nursing mother to leave while he was preaching? That doesn’t square with what I know about the man.
Stonebow There was no pus, the scab was continiously damp, and if it touched cloth, would stick to it. It wasn’t dripping anywhere, it merely was there. It was “sealed”, but the scab would not dry. It’s mere prescence was not a risk to others, it just was not at all pretty to look at. I didn’t like looking at it either.
It was something I couldn’t help, and so I didn’t get bitter, or think badly of people when they would avoid looking in my direction in P.E. The prep went to the P.E. teacher, and tried to get her to MAKE me cover it, the teacher wouldn’t, and the teacher HAD to consider things like possibility of infection.
After using Duo-derm (brand new tech at the time) for months, and other techniques to absorb the moisture, the wound was not healing. In fact, it got the terrible infection within a month of my "
acquiring" it, while the Duo-derm was in use. Therefore the doctor resorted to “old fashioned” methods, and said “Let it get some air, let’s see if that works.” It did.
I did not let my wound contact ANY workout equipment, or anything anyone else would touch. Thus the phrase, “workout as best I could”, there was some equipment I could not use. What do you think I’m a jackass or something? I excercise more consideration of others than that, AND when P.E. was done, I often put on jeans, which covered the wound from sight.
Yes, I do think the prep was evil, still do. I told her exactly why I had to keep the wound uncovered, in great detail. She didn’t care, she only cared about herself. She was like that in most things, she truly acted as if the world should revolve around her whims. It was after I’d explained to her, apologetically, that I could not cover the wound, and why, that she tried to go over my head, and MAKE me do it. She “bullied” me after the teacher refused, mocking me, and making pukey sounds in P.E. She behaved in a thoughtless inconsiderate, evil manner. I think anyone who tries to force their aesthetics on another, is being “evil”. Doubly so if it’s something like breastfeeding, or the situation I described above.
If that is your true definition of evil, someone who didn’t want to look at your flesh wound, I hope whatever diety you believe in will have mercy on you if you ever really are in contact with an evil person.
Usually when a doctor tells one to air a would out, it isn’t a requirement 24/7. If moisture was present in your wound, the possibility of bacteria transfer is even greater so I cannot blame anyone who wanted you to cover it during gym class. If you couldn’t bring yourself to cover it for the one hour you were in gym class, one has to wonder who really is the selfish person in this story. One hour a day will NOT stop it from healing if your doctor requested it be aired out.
Anything that causes the secretion of a BODILY FLUID may make someone uncomfortable. Breast milk is a bodily fluid, and if you think it doesn’t spread disease, ask any child who tested negative for HIV in many blood tests after birth, only to later test positive after breast feeding from his HIV positive mother. Am I saying someone’s risk is high to get HIV from an HIV postitive woman while she’s breast feeding? No, so please don’t start a hysterical post about that accusation. My point is simply that it is a bodily fluid, and many people don’t want other people’s fluids near where they are eating. Milk can get on the table and even if you take a napkin and wipe it, the table isn’t clean. The same as it wouldn’t be clean if saliva, semen, blood, feces, etc etc were there. This may make some people uncomfortable. Does it change your right to breastfeed? Nope, and I wouldn’t want it to. I’m simply saying that many people in this posting keep demanding consideration for the breast feeding mother and her child, but don’t give one thought to the consideration of anyone else. That’s a mighty uppity and selfish position. "Only my child matters, not your feelings. Some people even reduce the other person’s feelings to silly, immoral, childish, etc. Hardly true.
Lastly, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, many women are not discreet when they breast feed. Most women are, and you wouldn’t even know they are doing it. Obviously this woman at BK was NOT discreet. For all we know, she was being rude and lewd about it. She has every right to breastfeed, I’ll never say she doesn’t, but I think more women should show some class and tact and do it discreetly.
Daisy Mae The doctor specifically told me not to cover the wound with a sock or ANYTHING, (not even a bedsheet) due to 3 facts.
- The scab would “stick fast” to the sock, binding with it. Found it out the hard way. This happene within the timespan of P.E. class. Surely you agree that the only way a wound can heal, is if it doesn’t have the scab pulled off it daily? Especially a bone deep wound.
- I had just gotten over an infection, which putting sterile dressing or Duo-derm on was only encouraging to re-occur, making the wound even moister, thus encouraging infection, and
3.POOR CIRCULATION in my legs due to arthritis
I already stated that the teacher DID NOT consider my wound a risk to others, and she HAD to, by law think of such things. I believe she consulted the school nurse about it, the nurse took a look at my wound later that day.
I’m Pagan, I worship a Goddess, and a God. I also follow the Wiccan Rede. In my book what she did WAS evil. (Because she tried to FORCE her way on me, not because she didn’t want to look, re-read my post, I did not blame people for not wanting to look at my wound, I, myself didn’t like it.) Maybe not in yours. Don’t use religion to brow beat me again!
I’ve also encountered things more evil than that, I got beaten, verbally abused, and sexually accosted on a daily basis throughout my High School years, by people who had the same color skin as I did usually. (I was the "weird art student type, in a small hick town.) I was married to a VERY abusive man, I got out, alive. (Whole 'nother topic, he started very slowly, very gently introducing abuse into the equation, actually pretty common in abusers who are “clever”.) I’ve had bigots aim their hate at me… The list goes on and on.
As far as what you see as “obvious” I call bullshit. I breastfed in public, I was VERY discreet. Usually not even a glimpse of nipple was shown. Yet, there were often males staring at me as though I were some loathsome thing, even though they couldn’t even see my baby. The time I was feeding the baby in the backseat of the car in a store parking lot, with a blanket over the baby comes to mind. People get bent out of shape, even if they can see NOTHING, just because breastfeeding is going on. I’ve seen it personally.