Burning books in the US...'Burn Quran Day'

[Raygun99]

Fifth paragraph in that story.

[elucidator]

I see that the story says so, but I almost always click links, and that link takes me to the Vulture Ministry website, where I do not see any such thing. Its not that I doubt their bigotry and stupidity, I just think that they haven’t got the guts, more likely to pick on a smaller, more helpless group. They’ve little to fear from American muslims, but the ladies of Hadassah would kick their asses into next week. And “Fightin’ Joe” Lieberman would tear them a new one!

And if its true, I have to wonder why its not more widely known. If it were true, and widely known, a whole lot of Pubbies who are keeping a discreet reticence on this subject would reveal themselves as champions of tolerance and respect. Toot damn sweet, too!

[elucidator]

When you go to that internet pustule, you are offered the opportunity to donate. I got to wonder how much $ they’ve pulled down for this vile stunt?

Actually, I don’t really want to know. I’m trying to stay sane and sober, and I hate having to choose.

[tomndebb]

“Dort, wo man Bücher verbrennt, verbrennt man am Ende auch Menschen.”*

• Heinrich Heine, Almansor (1821)

Quoted by several people at the time that the Nazis engaged in their May 10, 1933 burning of Jewish books in Berlin. It is now the caption for most pictures of that burning at places like Dachau and various Holocaust museums.

*“Where they have burned books, they will end in burning human beings.”

[elucidator]

In reference to the Torah/Talmud burning above, the website offers an “article” expressing very strong pro-Israel sentiments.

Islam is Cursed by Cursing Israel; we are Blessed by Blessing Israel

Therein, some rather clumsy dancing around the subject of whether Jews are more acceptable infidels than Muslims. Yuck. Where is the “puking yer guts out” smiley when we need one?

[Magiver]

@qpw3141

Simply by obsessing about them.

I bring up 2 events and that’s an obsession. Really?
This is great debates. If you want to debate that the Bali bombing that targeted Westerners had nothing to do with Islamic preaching of hatred (which I cited) then by all means, speak up.

[qpw3141]

@Magiver

I bring up 2 events and that’s an obsession.
[/QUOTE]

You’ve been doing a bit more than that for a considerable amount of time.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@elucidator

@Raygun99

Strike Torah for Talmud, and they’re doing that.

Not seeing it. No mention of Talmud or Torah that I can see. Followed the link to the Vulture Ministrys website, is it part of the video offered?

From the article:

The Dove World Outreach Center also plans to burn copies of the Talmud (a sacred Jewish text) as well. The church has lost half of its members who don’t agree with what they’re doing.

[Steve_MB]

@Magiver

And he later apologized for it. It was a short lived jihad on his part.

Which proves the point – he’s no better than his opposite numbers in the Islamic world; he is just prevented from acting on his impulses and to (imperfectly) hide them because the rise of secularism in the West has denied him the political power enjoyed by said opposite numbers.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Uzi

You act as if that happened yesterday rather than 500+ years ago.

It doesn’t matter when. You implied that Islam was a violent religion that their’ “religion of peace” rhetoric actually meant that there woudl be peace when everyone was muslim or dead. I was just pointing out that the same could be said for other religions.

Re. The Crusades: Who do you think the Muslims got that land from in the first place? It wasn’t ALL peacefully. But the point being, Jesus probably wouldn’t have condoned those actions whereas Muhammad probably would have.

And you think Muhammed would have condoned 9/11, suicide bombing innocent folks at the Jerusalem starbucks? Much of the Christian Kingdom was converted at the edge of a sword as well, Jesus might not have condoned it but frankly much of the rationale behind burning a Quran today would apply to burning a bible 500 years ago.

I don’t condone what is going on in the radical muslim community but I don’t think i would pblame the religion any more than I would blame Christianity for pro-life murderers (but I would certainly blame some purported Muslims and Christians).

[XT]

Haven’t really kept up with the thread since it’s sort of wandered off the original course of the OP, but I was reading this article and figured I’d toss it in:

Even pastor’s old church condemns Quran-burning

It’s increasingly looking as though the only spiritual or political figure who will not denounce Florida pastor Terry Jones’ plan to commemorate Sept. 11 by burning copies of the Quran is Jones himself. Wednesday brings the news that even the church Jones founded in Germany in the 1980s is condemning the upcoming Quran-burning at his small place of worship in Gainesville, Fla.

“We are surprised and shocked at the extreme radicalism being displayed [by Jones] right now on this issue,” Stephan Baar of the Christian Community of Cologne told the Associated Press. The 60-member church kicked out Jones in 2008. Jones’ estranged daughter says the eviction arose from her father’s reported penchant for dipping into the church’s till to pay his own expenses.

Here’s a partial list of people who have condemned the planned bonfire:

* "It could endanger troops and it could endanger the overall effort," top commander in Afghanistan Gen. David Petraeus told the media. "It is precisely the kind of action the Taliban uses and could cause significant problems.

* As "an act of patriotism," the media should not cover the burning, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said. She also said, "It's regrettable that a pastor in Gainesville, Florida, with a church of no more than 50 people can make this outrageous and distressful, disgraceful plan, and get the world's attention":

* The terrorist attacks of 9/11, says the Vatican, "cannot be counteracted by an outrageous and grave gesture against a book considered sacred by a religious community."

* Attorney General Eric Holder called the plan "idiotic and dangerous."

* "I do not think well of the idea of burning anybody's Koran, Bible, Book of Mormon or anything else," Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour told reporters. "I don't think there is any excuse for it. I don't think it's a good idea."

* "Any type of activity like that that puts our troops in harm's way would be a concern," White House spokesman Robert Gibbs said Tuesday.

* "I appeal to people who are planning to burn the Quran to reconsider and drop their plans because they are inconsistent with American values and, as General Petraeus has warned, threatening to America's military," Connecticut Sen. Joe Lieberman said in a statement.

* House Minority Leader John Boehner reluctantly spoke out against the event, comparing it to the planned Islamic center near Ground Zero. "Well, listen, I just think it's not wise to do this in the face of what our country represents. ... Just because you have the right to do something in America, doesn't mean it's the right thing to do."

* New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg called it "boneheaded and wrong" but said the protesters are protected by the First Amendment. "He has a right to do it," he said.

* Actress Angelina Jolie spoke out against the plan while visiting Pakistan to raise awareness about the devastating floods. "I have hardly the words that somebody would do that to somebody's religious book," she said:

-XT

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Uzi

@Kobal2

Not really, no. Both of them are long dead, and both of them are historical yet have quite a bit of fictional/mythical dimension tacked on long after they died and couldn’t object anymore.

Did Jesus ever say to kill anyone? Did Mohammad? I’m pretty sure Jesus didn’t and Mohammad did. There is no tacking on of facts that Mohammad butchered people and said god condoned the acts.

Yeah there are at least a couple of palces where Jesus talks about killing folks and lets not forget the much larger and more often cited (these days) Old Testament, which condoned all sorts of killing and maiming and other horrible shit.

[Steve_MB]

@tomndebb

As to the “brutal” tax, it is true that Muslims were exempted from part of the taxes, but the actual records indicate that the taxes levied were no more harsh than the taxes levied by the Christain monarchs that had been overthrown. (In fact, while I do not know the specifics of the Iberian taxes, in the East, the Muslim taxes were actually lower than the Byzantine taxes they replaced.)

One reason the Arabs were able to conquer the southern provinces of the Byzantine Empire so easily was that the Arabs were willing to let the locals practice whatever kind of Christianity they liked as long as they paid their taxes, while the Empire kept trying to suppress the Monophysite heretics.

[Dob]

I’m torn on this whole issue. On one hand the pastor is correct… when does it stop? When do we stop worrying what terroists think? After 9/11 Bush came out and said to keep doing what we do… shop, go to movies, etc… but the gist of it was to not let the terroists win. Now 9yrs later we care what they think again??

Of course when our top general comes out and tells you that you are endangering lives how can you continue in good faith? I mean, when does any general ever come out and speak on a domestic issue like this?? I dont think he said it for the sound bite!

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Uzi

@Grey

Do you just want New Testament or are you open to Old Testament since Jesus is God?

You do realize that Islam acknowledges the old testament, right? Link. So, whatever happened before either prophet pretty much equals out and they should be evaluated on their words alone, not what happened before.

So is the New Testament so what? Christianity is the whole of the belief not just the part that is convenient for the current argument.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Kobal2

@Magiver

Possibly the reason that Islam never outgrew it’s violent past is that it’s progenitor was a warrior who codified a strict enforcement of the rules whereas Christianity advanced beyond the old testament’s brutality and focused on the new testament’s non-violent prophet.

The idea that its a few extremists doesn’t add up when you start to look at the size of organization such as Hamas, Hezbolla, the Taliban and a plethora of other groups committed to an extremely harsh interpretation of the religion. For that matter, there are entire countries that subscribe to the mentality of Hamas.

Or it could be socio-economic factors, not getting in on the New World action, endemic poverty, living in a damn sand bucket, colonization and de-colonization, intermittent meddling by the Western powers backing up this or that petty tyrant…

And the West became more open and enlightened because humanist philosophers clashed against religion and broke its yoke on society, because two World Wars liberated women, because hippies fucked in the mud and because scientists defied Church interdicts in secrecy. It has nothing to do with the benevolent guiding light of Christianity or any sort of religion whatsoever.

People don’t go to religion to find a way to act, they act some way and then make religion say it’s OK. It’s what happened in the Crusades, it’s what happened during the Catholic/Protestant wars, it’s what happens with the Taliban, and it’s what happens with that stupid book burning.

@Uzi : “Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.”, Matthew 10:34. And FWIW, while I’m no Koran scholar, I believe most of the fire and brimstone in it is in the form of “Allah will deal with them” rather than “go and kill 'em”.

Then what is it about the muslim countries taht produce so much mroe unrest and terrorism compared to other countries taht have suffered just as much if not more indignity at the hands of the white satan?

[XT]

@Dob

I’m torn on this whole issue. On one hand the pastor is correct… when does it stop? When do we stop worrying what terroists think? After 9/11 Bush came out and said to keep doing what we do… shop, go to movies, etc… but the gist of it was to not let the terroists win. Now 9yrs later we care what they think again??

I think the difference is between doing something you’ve always done and doing something to be deliberately provocative, to deliberately insult people and rub their faces in it. For instance, I’m all for the comic’s that make fun of Islam and Mohammad (just like I love the South Park episodes that makes fun of Jesus and other religious leaders). If people want to take offense at that, if they want to lash out at ‘us’ because of something like that, well, then I say let them do their worst…we shouldn’t bend one iota on freedom of speech, and if folks have to die because of it then they do. But burning books? Burning some other groups holy books? Even though I think that holy books are complete nonsense, that’s deliberate provocation, and not freedom of speech…IMHO at any rate.

-XT

[Dob]

hmm… XT you make a good point! Now im thinking the pastor is just a douche.

[tomndebb]

@Dob

I’m torn on this whole issue. On one hand the pastor is correct… when does it stop? When do we stop worrying what terroists think? After 9/11 Bush came out and said to keep doing what we do… shop, go to movies, etc… but the gist of it was to not let the terroists win. Now 9yrs later we care what they think again??

Burning Qur’ans does not involve just the terrorists. It offends Muslims who have worked with us to stop the terrorists and it gives the terrorists fodder to recruit new young volunteers.

[tomndebb]

@Damuri_Ajashi

Then what is it about the muslim countries taht produce so much mroe unrest and terrorism compared to other countries taht have suffered just as much if not more indignity at the hands of the white satan?

You mean such peaceful countries as Sri Lanka, Bolivia, Mexico, Zimbabwe, Serbia (attacking the rest of the former Yugoslavia), Congo, and the other various peaceful lands that simply do not get included in a list of “violent” Muslim places because they happen to not be a source of Muslim violence? (To that can be added Peru and Chile and Argentina that are relatively peaceful, now, but that have very violent recent histories.)

Indonesia, Iran, Philipines, Chechnya, and a few other places were the sites of the active suppression of Islam, which puts their anger into a specific context. Many of the Arab states are run by the corrupt guys that made the best deals with the oil companies and are now facing hostility from their fellow countrymen–often led by the more Puritanical Muslim religious leaders on an anti-corruption platform. Mao was able to consolidate power in China over fifty years ago while the European nations still had more control over the now independent Muslim countries, but China was quite violent, even through the 1970s.