Burning Flags

I have to agree with MisterEcks, the flag is just a symbol. If you burn it, you’re not burning the country, or the servicemen, or anything except some cloth.

That symbolism might make some people mad, but it does serve to illustrate a point. The fact that we can burn flags is a demonstration of the freedom we have, to act like idiots, or do whatever we want. That should almost make people proud to see.

We need these freedoms. When we start respecting the symbols more than the ideas behind them, we’re toast. We should be allowed to burn flags, pictures of politicians, pictures of the pope, etc. They’re symbols of the ideas those people and things stand for, and by burning them, we express our opinions. By preventing burning of symbols, we open pandoras box. If we can’t burn the flag, we shouldn’t burn a picture of the president. And thus, all past presidents. And vice presidents are as good as presidents. And servicemen are deputized by the country, so their images should be sacred. And then all state flags, and thus state leaders. etc.

Then someone will complain that you can still burn the pope’s picture. So laws will no doubt be passed to stop that, and will of course extend to Jesus and god, etc, then of course for the other main religions, and then the wackos will get their day, and picture of the sacred Star Goat will be protected.

And then scientologists will lobby for protection of any written work of Elron, because it’s holy.

It’s a slippery slop, the only thing to do is not set foot on it at all.

A symbol is just a symbol, nothing more, and should be burnable, like any other object.

The best reason NOT to burn the flag is that you CAN burn the flag.


Truth does not change because it is, or is not, beleived by a majority of the people.
-Giordano Bruno

I agree completely, and to add a corollary:

The best reason to burn the flag would be if it were illegal to do so.


“Banned by the Space Pope”

I almost added that the first thing I’d do if the anti-burning ammendment passed, would be to burn a flag in protest, despite the fact that I would NEVER burn one otherwise.


Truth does not change because it is, or is not, beleived by a majority of the people.
-Giordano Bruno

Speaking of Giordano Bruno, this page from Rice University has a somewhat less-than-glowing appraisal of his life and work: http://es.rice.edu/ES/humsoc/Galileo/People/bruno.html

I can’t say I’m particularly familliar with his work, but I do think that the single quote in my sig is quite profound.


Truth does not change because it is, or is not, beleived by a majority of the people.
-Giordano Bruno

So far, there have only been a handful of flag burnings in the US. I agree that a Burn Ban Amendment would result in more flag burnings. If we our told we no longer have the right to this form of protest, we will protest. Those who are not brave enough to burn a real flag could always burn one of those t-shirts designed to look like a flag.
Of course the Real Solution is to pass a law requiring all flag makers to make flame-proof flags, register the owners, and make spot inspentions to insure they have not dishonored their false god.

[QUOTE]
and make spot inspentions

[QUOTE/]

and make spot inspections
(oops spelling)

AFAIK, the arguments in favor of a flag-burning amendment all boil down to “It expersses an idea that we don’t like, therefore it should be prohibited.” Excuse me, but that attitude has no place in American society. The Founding Fathers fought to make this country one where free exchange of ideas is respected, and that means for everybody, not just those who agree with you.


Life is a tragedy for those who feel and a comedy for those who think.

>>>RoboDude wrote: “AFAIK, the arguments in favor of a flag-burning amendment all boil down to “It expersses an idea that we don’t like, therefore it should be prohibited.” Excuse me, but that attitude has no place in American society.”<<<

Er…does it strike you that maybe formulation isn’t quite what it should be? Declaring certain attitudes “have no place in American scociety” is essentially what those in favor of banning flag burning are doing.

No, because by campaigning to keep the status quo, he is NOT mandating that the flag must be burned at all possible times. He is supporting the rights of people who both WANT to burn the flag, and the rights of those who do NOT want to burn the flag.

Those who are campaigning against burning of the flag do not want to give any options in the matter.

The logic that you have used is ususally the logic used when the previous argument is 99% or more “correct” and the opposition merely needs something, anything, to nit pick about. His point was quite clear, and very well phrased, and you needed something to attack. This has always been a very weak argument in my book.

Truth does not change because it is, or is not, beleived by a majority of the people.
-Giordano Bruno

Okay, raoulortega said

Well, no message exactly, but here comes a possible message.

When I was a Cub Scout, I attended a couple of flag-burning ceremonies with my pack. I was given to understand that when an American flag becomes worn, dirty, and tattered, the only proper method of taking it out of service is to dispose of it in a suitably reverent cremation ceremony. The ones I attended as a Cub Scout were quite reverent. Color guard, bugler playing “Taps,” all marshmallow toasting confined to the secondary, or “non-flag” fire :D, the whole nine yards. The point is, you don’t sew, or patch, or re-weave, or dry-clean, or launder an American flag.

Here’s where I get into some extrapolation that may bring this post on-topic. I see no reason why such a reverent, ceremonious cremation could not be appropriately carried out by any private citizen, or any group. Let’s have a hypothetical. I like to fly Old Glory on the flagpole in my back yard while I barbecue on the Fourth of July. So, after the cookout, the neighbors and I set off our neighborhood-sized collection of safe and sane fireworks (and a couple of dozen bottle rockets that my father-in-law brought back from Singapore). One of the bottle rockets gets blown off course by a gust of wind, and flies smack into the flag, in which it gets enshrouded, eventually being smothered due to lack of oxygen, but not before it puts some nasty burns in the fabric. Obviously, the only thing to be done is to hold a suitably reverent flag-burning ceremony.

So, on a suitably reverent day, I hold one. Then I go to the hardware store and buy another flag. Labor Day comes along, so I hoist the ensign again, and go to light the barbecue. OOPS! I’m all out of propane! So I fling the tank into my car and motor over to the local U-Haul outlet to have it filled up. But U-Haul is closed on Labor Day. So, I wander through the back roads of the county until I find a place that fills propane tanks. Meanwhile, some skinheads (who just started moving into the neighborhood in August) are cruising around, looking for some trouble to cause. They hop the fence into my back yard, steal all of the beer from my cooler, and just to show some extra contempt for my property, they piss in my vegetable garden, crap in my hot tub, and take turns wiping their asses on my American flag, which they then raise up the flagpole again. They’re gone by the time I get home. What is there for me to do (with the besmirched flag) but hold another reverent flag-burning ceremony?

So, what is it that the pinko commie bastards who burn the flag in a demonstration in MacArthur Park saying? Simply this: The United States Government, by (insert government action being protested here), has befouled and besmirched the American Flag and has defecated upon every ideal and principle that this flag stands for. Our action in burning this flag, is the appropriate method for disposing an American Flag that has been thus rendered unfit to be flown.

[DISCLAIMER]The above (except for my Cub Scout reminiscences)is entirely hypothetical. I don’t really have my own house, a back yard large enough for a hot tub, a hot tub, a flagpole, an American flag, a living father-in-law, a vegetable garden, a local gang of recently arrived skinheads, or a cooler. And there really aren’t any backroads in my county that would reward a search for propane.[/DISCLAIMER]

OOPS. Please scratch

and replace with

Thank you.

I dissagree. They should make flags soaked in oil so when you catch one on fire its going to catch you on fire too :slight_smile: Now thats a way to stop flag burning

>>>Flymaster wrote: “No, because by campaigning to keep the status quo, he is NOT mandating that the flag must be burned at all possible times. He is supporting the rights of people who both WANT to burn the flag, and the rights of those who do NOT want to burn the flag.”<<<

You might try bothering to read my post on the subject up above, in which case you’d realize that I said the same thing.
>>>The logic that you have used is ususally the logic used when the previous argument is 99% or more “correct” and the opposition merely needs something, anything, to nit pick about. His point was
quite clear, and very well phrased, and you needed something to attack. This has always been a very weak argument in my book.<<<

Since you apparently don’t get my point, I’ll try again. My beef isn’t with the position against banning flag burning–as I already said, that’s my position too. My complaint is with the statement that certain attitudes “have no place in American society.” As I said, this is the same idea the burn-banners have–they don’t like the attitudes, so they have no place in society. Maybe that’s not what RoboDude meant–I don’t know. But I don’t know that’s NOT what he meant, either.

I see a lot of this on issues that degenerate into Republican/Democrat or Left/Right debates–the wringing of hands about the “evil” other side, and the gleeful willingness to use exactly the same tactics on behalf of the “correct” side. (Frequently accompanied by the whine “But THEY did it first!” when the transgressor gets called on it. I’d say this means the mentality shown is that of a 12-year-old…but I’d be insulting too many 12-year-olds that way.) Sorry, but that doesn’t impress me–all it does is lose my support for the side I’d naturally be on.

I dislike thought-police of both the Left and Right equally–if that’s what RoboDude was trying to set himself up as, then I’ll feel free to attack away. If he didn’t actually mean his statement the way I read it, then I apologize to him. I won’t know one way or the other without some word from the horse’s mouth…as opposed to missives from further rearward.


I’ll defend to the death your right to believe such ridiculous nonsense.