No. You get to keep counting 'til the law says otherwise. As Spiritus explained, hand recounts are part of Florida law. Do you have a problem with Florida law? Do you have a problem with Bush fighting against Florida law? I do.
Spiritus addressed this as well (I’m glad he posted first – saved me a lot of typing!).
As I mentioned in another thread (and you apparently agreed), just because you recount once doesn’t mean you have a better number. But you seem to want to end immediately. I say it should be counted again – in a race as close as this – until we actually get numbers that match.
Part of my job is to work on inventories (I won’t go into inventories of what, 'cus it doesn’t matter). If I do an inventory and come up with a number, 5456, and then a coworker checks it and comes up with 5367, we don’t just say, “Oh, well, 5367 is the more recent number, so that’s the one we’ll use.” We check it again. We try to find out where the differences are and why. Hell, I spent two days last week trying to figure out why a sum being used by a coworker was different than the sum of the information I had given him (in a database).
So I guess my work is just more important than something little like the presidential election?
If the law says that Gore’s people are entitled to ask for a limited hand recount, that’s fine by me.
What troubles me are the lawsuits. Lawyers are very good at coming in after the fact, finding issues, and fighting over them for years. But we need a new president in 10 weeks or so.
Lawyers are also very good at “forum-shopping.” I’m told that of several lawsuits already filed in Florida, the one filed in federal court has been dropped by the plaintiffs. Is this because they drew a Reagan appointee as a judge?
I’m also troubled by the basis for these lawsuits. It would be one thing if there was evidence of fraud, but my understanding is that the basis is that a ballot, which was published prior to the election and not objected to, was confusing. IMHO, this is not a good basis to drag the judiciary into the fray and delay the results.
So, have a count, have a re-count, hand count 3 precincts or whatever, and if Bush is still ahead, give it up.
(And yeah, I suppose Bush should demand a hand count if he wants to)
They accuse Gore of wanting the FL ballots counted over and over again, until it works out in his favor.
Now correct me if I’m wrong, but the initial vote was what we always do, and the machine recount was required by Florida law, and not requested by the Gore campaign.
Gore has asked for one hand recount, which is far less than a complete recount of all the ballots, in four of the state’s 67 counties. (Read Spititus Mundi’s post above for full details.)
GOP Math: ‘one’ = ‘over and over again’.
[Diana King]
Oh why, oh why, oh why you tell me l-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-lies…
[/Diana King]
After all the stuff from the GOP (and from a fair number of Democrats too) about how we shouldn’t involve the courts, is anyone else amused that it took the Republicans about two and a half days to file a lawsuit over this?
If Bush wins two out of three ballot counts, is he the winner? Or 3 out of 5? 4 out of 7? If Gore wins the last count is he the winner, even if Bush won the others? I can’t even make my check book come out the same way twice, let alone six million scattered and screwed up ballots. This is a tough situation for everyone involved.
“If there is a law saying that those ballots were illegal, then why would you be opposed to a lawsuit on that basis?”
If there’s a law saying that the “confusing” ballots are illegal, and if that law permits legal challenges after the fact, then I suppose it would be reasonable for Gore (or whoever) to bring an action on that basis.
I know there’s been some debate on the question, and I know that statutes have been posted here. I’m not totally sure who to believe, but I’ve been subconsciously leaning towards thinking that the “ballots” are legal.
I absolutely agree with you that if the hand recount in those counties tips the election in favor of Gore, the rest of the state should be recounted by hand…Or perhaps it should be done anyway. And, I’m not really sure it would be that much harder to recount the whole state than just those counties…After all, the counties in question are already populous enough to be a non-significant fraction of the state. And, it is not like you have to do it in series…You can do it in parallel…And, I imagine a lot of those smaller counties which just have thousands or a few ten thousands of votes to deal with could get through it pretty quickly.
I too find it amusing that it is the Bush campaign that may be the first to file a suit, given their claim that it should stay out of the courts. After all, the Gore campaign has only said so far (I believe) that it might be supporting law suits filed by voters.
We did cross-post. I actually pretty much agree with your assessment, and, believe it or not, I’m not against a re-count in theory. I do want there to be an accurate count. The number of ballots cast is a finite number and should be able to be determined with accuracy.
In my opinion, and it seems DavidB might be disagreeing on this point, is that where a sample is so large, the counting process at some point will likely be concluded with built-in error. Much like a scientific result can be reported with a standard error or deviation and still be considered “valid.” But again, I’m all for making sure this error is lessened to the greatest extent possible.
As far as the second point about human judgement, I agree that human judgement is not a bad thing as long as the proper safeguards are put into place. The panel forum would seem to accomplish this in requiring a unanimous call on any particular ballot. I certainly hope this is the case as dictated by Florida law.
Fow what it’s worth, the Florida Secretary of State’s determination is that the ballots are legal. I’m sure, given this mess, that a court will have to confirm or deny that assessment. Until that happens, I trust the opinion of the FL SoS more than that of the talking heads and campaign spinmeisters.
fwiw, the ballot that was distributed prior to the election is not identical the one actually used.
we’ve had two counts so far, but they gave different results. doesn’t it make sense that we should recount until we have two sets of results that are identical or similar??
nobody is “conjuring” up any votes. all votes found/counted/recounted, are actual real votes from real voters. unless you are alleging fraud, which should be investigated and proven.
If so, Miami-Dade County may hold surprises. According to Myriam Marquez of the Orlando Sentinel, many Cuban-American districts in Miami, furious over the Elian Gonzalez affair, voted for Bush by 90%. What if Gore were to find they actually went 95% for Bush? (Possibly, some Bush ballots were not punched all the way through for the machines to read, or the holes were obscured by the bits of paper that were punched out, called chits. But a person with normal or corrected vision could see the holes clearly.)
Yes, I also like the phrase “endlessly challenging” - oh yeah, one recount is endless. Talk about spin! The Republicans are the worst. And can’t you just see and hear the meetings about how Georgie can keep the election by simply presuming it through moving forward with a transition team? Ya know, Dubya curled my toes and tortured my tummy before the election, but now he’s almost laughable. i have to say I am getting extreme satisfaction out of knowing that this whole thing has just ruined his day and destroyed his triumphant celebration, no matter what the ultimate outcome. That makes it almost worth it.
You betcha. And not a bit surprised.
But to be fair (I haven’t listened to the news yet this morning, so I may be wrong here), and I do try to be, even when I gotta hold my nose, they have not filed a lawsuit. Georgie has simply authorized Baker to do so should he feel the need. Which would be SUCH a bad idea I can’t even believ they thought of it. Wait a minute… bad ideas, Republicans… of course they thought of it. What was I thinking.
The talking out of both sides of their mouths on this is jaw-dropping, and no one in the editorial media seems to be busting them on it. They try to seem to take the high road by talking about things like “endless challenges” and portraying Gore’s unwillingness to concede as some kind of undignified foolishness. Portraying it as ridiculous, destructive, and of course, completely unnecessary since we all know who the winner will be.
And out of the other side of their mouths, they are basically threatening to challenge about 5 other states, saying “where will it stop!?”. I have an answer: in Florida, unless they take it somewhere else.
I am amazed that they talk this way and don’t think anyone will notice. But then again, Dubya has been saying outrageous and stupid things for months, and his constiuency hasn’t seemed to notice or care, so maybe they know what they’re doing.
One thing, though…I would be the first to say that if the Republicans think they have a legitimate gripe about other states, by all means, ask for a re-count. However, I will also point out that they need to win re-counts in multiple states if they lose Florida and that some of these states, like Iowa, have considerably larger margins (somewhat larger in absolute terms, quite a bit larger in % terms) than Florida…So, I think the likelihood of them being able to prevail in recounts there is not that large. But, admittedly New Mexico and Oregon look to be extremely close and depending on how the last of the counting goes, it might be legitimate for them to ask for a re-count.
And, for those of you who worry that this will set a standard for future elections…Well, let’s face it…this election is an anomaly. We are unlikely to have a Presidential election this close again for a long time! (Not to say it won’t happen again for a long time, but just that the likelihood ain’t that great.) Hey, and all this recounting, media hype, etc. contributes to our GDP!
I thought about opening another thread for this, but I just can’t bear to increase the number of election threads in GD. Besides, it is closely related to this OP, so . . .
I am not amused that the Bush campaign has filed suit in federal court to stop the hand recounts requested by the Gore campaign.
My bias in this is that I truly believe it is important in a close race that each valid ballot be accurately tallied.
I am outraged that the Bush campaign is attempting to prevent the most accurate accounting possible of the voters in question. This outrage is only increased by the realization that one of the ballots in question may be my own.
What truly galls me, though, is the apparent hypocrisy of teh Bush position. This is not a lawsuit begun by private individuals supported by the Bush campaign: the Bush campaign is directly driving this effort. Where is th e hypocrisy?
A campaign that has consistently trumpeted the benefit of allowing states to make their own policy free of federal micro-management is using a federal court to try to override the right of a state to follow its own election laws.
A campaign that has consistently used the catch phrase “I trust the American people” is refusing to trust American people to accurately and honestly count valid ballots.
A campaign that expressed outrage when the Gore campaign first raised the idea of sponsoring legal challenges to the electoral process in Florida has been the first to leap into that particular breech.
I felt it would have been a mistake for the Gore camapaign to use legal challenges to sway the results of the current election. I feel it is a mistake that the Bush campaign has done the same.
I am appalled at the hypocrisy inherent in th eparticulars of the Bush challenge.
I am so disgusted by this action that I almost forgot one:
There was a hand recount of some ballots in Seminole Couny, a hand recounted that was supported by the Bush campaign and resulted in a gain of 95 votes for Bush. Apparently Bush’s objections to a hand recount only apply to Democratic precints.
If YOU, the voice of calm and reason, are outraged and disgusted by this hypocrisy, then I think it’s plain that Bush has blown it.
I was also about to start a new thread, after watching Bush himself and a of his lackeys trying desperately, convolutedly, to justify this perfectly outrageous behavior. Watching Bush barely contain his rage as he discusses it, well, if it was possible I am even MORE mortified at the idea of this petty, small, bratty little man being the leader of the free world.
My god, just listen to the two sides…
I can’t go on. I’m completely disgusted. I can only assume that all thinking people would be.
" If any paper ballot is damaged or defective so that it cannot be counted properly by the automatic tabulating equipment, the ballot shall be counted manually at the counting center by the canvassing board. . ."
But Dubya goes to court to PREVENT it.
Oh yeah, folks, he’s HONEST. He TRUSTS US. He’s MORAL and UPSTANDING.
Aren’t you ashamed of your candidate, Bush people? You oughta be. You should also be starting to feel DUPED if in fact you ever bought hishorsehsit in the first place.
CNN is now reporting that in 1997 Bush signed into law a bill in Texas stating that “manual recount shall be preferred to electronic recount”.
I understand that politics is the science of expediency, but are there no limits??? Is there no principal of our republic which is basic enough to overcome partisan squabbling and personal hypoocrisy?
