He has an actual grip on reality?
Where do I deny violence is happening in Iraq? Or suicide bombing etc? I still don’t think its heading for failure though.
Oh, Ryan_Liam, you poor little misunderstood wanker… I’m going to just go ahead and snip most of your insults as you’re just trying to confuse the fact that you’re dead wrong and wildly off topic to boot. Quick note - you brought up Iraq; the OP certainly didn’t other than to mention in passing that the Wartime budget didn’t include the cost of the war…
So now you’re saying violence in Iraq is a good thing? Good for Democracy? That this is a viable outcome for the elections, with over 1000 US casualties, over 10k Iraqi casualties, possibly bankrupting the US economy, and $200+ BILLION spent? To have 40% of the country openly fighting against the other 60% in open violence? What are you smoking, and why aren’t you sharing with the rest of us? Because that sounds a lot more like civil war than a transition to democracy to me. Of course, YMMV.
You’re gonna have to back this one up, my foin bucko. Cause this is just so much of what makes the grass grow. I have yet to see a single source that says anything similar to this.
Sure, those nice polite Kurds, they’ll just sit still for dozens of years, and wait until the international community takes notice of their struggle. Just like the Palestinians.
What’s that you say? The Palestinians live on sufferance from the Israelis? The Kurds have been trying to form their own state for over 10 years? Oh, and the PKK in Turkey is a Kurdish terrorist group that’s been throwing bombs and commiting other terrorist activities for 10 years while ajitating for a separate Kurdish state?
Oh, Ryan, Ryan, Ryan. When will you ever learn that your little hunches don’t hold water around here? Prove it. Prove anything you say, you little fucktard.
Who is doing the violence again? Oh, yeah, the 20% Sunni minority that doesn’t like the Shi’a majority and hates the US for throwing them out of power in Iraq. Oh, yeah, it’s just those guys. And are you actually trying to say that a violent minority controlling the Sunnis in Iraq is a good thing?
Sure it is not a disaster. Sure.
Then why don’t you take the first step in supporting the new regime by moving there? I hear you can get seafront property on the Iranian border dead cheap.
Oh, and another thing sweetie - it’s not your country going broke paying for it, you little asshole. So yet another reason why your pathetic little war cheerleading is even more misplaced.
One last note - I know it’s hard to for you to understand when someone is saying something other than Bush=Good, rah rah rah, and America #1, but do try, OK?
Nope, you’re free to spew whatever garbage you want, and look just as stupid as you like whilst doing so. What I was suggesting was that if you ever have something more original than grunts and whistles to bring to the table, you inbred buffoon, then you should, but until such point, then you should shut the hell up.
Ryan, and anyone else who might be interested, do yourselves a favor and get this book now. It is called The Logic of Political Survival. The appendices are technical, but even if you skip that stuff entirely, you can still grasp the model very well.
It is difficult for me to have discussions like this without at least referencing it or the basic idea of the selectorate. Better to get it from the source.
I’d be pretty surprised if it didn’t change the way you think.
[sub]Bruce Bueno de Mesquita and Alaistair Smith were my international relations and game theory teachers, respectively. I don’t usually pimp out books for faculty I have worked with, but this one really deserves it.[/sub]
So, let me get this straight. It’s OK to invade a country, blow shit up, topple their government, kill some people, and suck up their oil. In the name of Freedom of course. But, it is not OK to clean up the mess we made and ensure that the poor bastards have a chance to actually build a new government and experience this mysterious wonder that is Freedom. Just blow shit up and then leave. Let’s cut to the chase. Why don’t we just make a formal policy announcement that we the U.S intend to smash shit everywhere, and then leave it all to rot? Then we can drop all the pretense about being The Good Guy In The White Hat. We can stop pretending it is For Their Own Good. We can cut through all the bullshit and git to the shootin’ and killin’. :rolleyes:
And you’re just batshit insane. No one said that. NO ONE. So wipe the drool off your chin and try again, mate.
In response: There is a very real reason we don’t do this. Re-elections. Those that make the decisions about these things are publicly appointed officials, and they are concerned that if they said things like this, they would be out of a job the next time ballots came out. Much of politics is putting the best possible face on a situation, even if it’s an outright lie.
And you’re a cunt kicking cunt, its so easy to throw insults, much harder to actually give to shits about it 
Yes, the wartime budget is directly linked to the Iraq campaign, so it takes prominence as the money can be directed elsewhere.
Bankrupting? Oh please, I hardly say we’re near that, the US economy is the most powerful in the world, it can survive this, just like it survived the deficit spending of the 80’s, we can survive Iraq, and yes, it was all worth it.
I didn’t say 40% I said if the Shia government wasn’t inclusive, there would be outright rejection by Sunnis of Kurdish and Arab origin, they might not like each other, but they won’t stand to be marginalised.
People never learn do they?
The Kurds and Shia are the new powerbrokers of the new Iraq, where does it say they’re being oppressed? I can say the same for Scottish independence, just because a certain ethnic group wants to split, doesn’t make it a good idea does it?
The Turkish military has been suppressing Kurdish national identity which fuelled the seperatism of Kurds from Turkey, given the fact that the Kurdish part is also the poorest, the human rights and oppression of Kurds, makes the seperatist cause more of an aim.
Mr Barzani says only federalism agenda for the moment
I just did asshole
What? When have I ever stipulated that to be the case, I said the majority of Sunnis probably wouldn’t mind a dialogue and their rights guranteed by the Shias and Kurds, this is only being obstructed by the terrorists of Al Sunna and Al Zarqawi.
Sarcasm at its best
I’m glad you agree.
? How would me moving there, prove anything? I’m not a millionare you know.
Oh its not? The Uk is the largest contributor second to that of the United States, and you’re saying this isn’t a drain you little cunt kicking cunt?
Initial cost of war put at 3.2 Billion
I see nothing wrong in bringing benefit to the Iraqi people from the invasion which was wrong. We’re there to help them help themselves, and we’re doing it quite well.
Always remember you’re a cunt kicking cunt ok? Insults are always so easy to dish out.
I stand firm on my position regarding Iraq.
Good, and like I said, if you don’t like my opinion raise objections as much as you want. Hey no need to be insulting, afterall, freespeech is whatever I want to say
No need to spit your dummy out, my my, you’ve upset me now
Well, Worldeater certainly implied it.
I think the “batshit insane” was directed at me. So, invading and shootin’ and killin’ is sane, but fixing the mess we made is crazy. Attacking someone in the holy name of Freedom (and WMD) is OK, but sticking around to keep that promise is not OK. Who is the drooling batshit insane one? When we attacked, we committed ourselves to see it through to the bitter end. If we can’t, then holy crap, maybe we should have never gone there.
Remember that when troops start getting diverted to Iran.
And that is what the Bush doctrine will achieve: the bitterest end imaginable for the Iraqis and Americans. Mark my words; a Republican President will declare the Iraqi security forces sufficient to defend against the insurgency, and our forces will withdraw. Within one year, Iraq will descend into the unimaginable chaos of civil war, and smug politicians will dust off their hands and claim we did all we could. But all we will have to show for it is 5,000 war dead and three quarters of a trillion dollars down the spigothole.
Amen.
No a “wartime” budget is a not so clever excuse used to leave the billions Iraq is costing us out of the budget. The fact that they’re trying to fool people and failing miserably is pathetic.
What’s this “we” shit? IIRC You ain’t an American citizen.
Not for much longer.
It’s not just about surviving Iraq. It’s about surviving Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran <shudder>, the results of the cuts on the economy, and most of all, surviving crazyman Bush.
/head asplodes
/head reforms
Let’s break that down into the 4 parts you mentioned. (why am I bothering?)
You see nothing wrong with…
- A war that is wrong (in your words, and I agree)
Next, You see nothing wrong with…
- A war that was wrong that is costing SHITLOADS of money. So much in fact that the citizens of this country are now being told we have to tighten the belt.
Next, you see nothing wrong with…
- A war that was wrong that costs a shitload of money, that we undertook “in order to help them help themselves”? Hold on a minute, that wasn’t our justification to invade Iraq, it was to protect ourselves from SH
Finally, you see nothing wrong with…
- A war that was wrong that costs shitloads of money that we started under false pretenses, that we “doing quite well”? wtf?
Even the Bush people won’t admit it’s going well. Are you even remotely aware of their expectations of how long / how much this was going to be?
Oh please. Scaremongering at most.
Yes. And? Isn’t that out objective until we can withdraw, besides, what political interest would there be to do half assed training and declare success?
This is what I don’t understand. Why would the administration unilaterally withdraw from Iraq if it knew the concequences of doing so before the security forces of Iraq were ready would be absolutely horrendous?
Yes, our forces will withdraw, but piecemeal, ensuring that until the end, Iraqis have support of our forces. Even then I don’t think we’ll withdraw, we’ll still maintain a presence in the military and economic establishments.
Rubbish. this has been claimed ever since the war ended, still hasn’t happened, and the Coaltiion and Iraqi people have taken everything that has been thrown at them. The Iraqis are learning to fight for themselves and are rallying around the newly formed national assembly. Apart from the rise in violence, the situation is moving forward. People seem to forget that terrorists, when cornered raise the stakes to unimaginably high proportions for maximum effect.
Dude, exactly how naive are you?
The real problem, which you’ve yet to address, is what if the Iraqi forces are never ready to take over security, how long do we wait? Do we wait 2 years, 5 years, 10 years?
Now to put the level of training and equipment required into perspective, remember the US has the most modern army in the history of the world and currently has the #1 economy in the world. With all this in consideration, THE US IS DOING A SHITTY JOB OF CONTROLLING IRAQ. Get that? What makes you think that the Iraqis will ever be able to control their country?
Huh?
“Except for the increase in people getting blown to pieces, the situation is moving forward”
What type of tortured logic is that?
Who are you suggesting is scaremongering – me, or the U.S. Secretary of State?
Do you think they’re going to wait until Iraq is stabilized before moving on to the next target? Do you really believe that “spreading democracy” is the true motivation?
Right, apart from the widespread metastasis, the patient is progressing nicely.
Well then, he’ll be eventually held accountable.
I’m British, theres a British contingent in Iraq, the second largest out of the Coalition, this is primarily an Anglo American occupation, so this ‘we’ is in regards to the fact we’re both in the Country.
He’s following the Reaganomics example, this will hardly destroy the economy.
God help us all :rolleyes:
You did it in World war two, you can do it again. We all have to make sacrifices for the greater good.
Yep, I’m quite aware that this campaign will take years to finish. I am confident we’ll pull through in the end.
Um, no he won’t. By what means can he be held accountable?
Earlier you said “Bankrupting? Oh please, I hardly say we’re near that,” in regards to th US economy.
Have you forgetten that THE WAR IS WRONG? We have to tighten our belts because Bush made a mistake? I’m supposed to be happy about this?
Well maybe you should consult with the people who planned the war, because they thought it would only take months.
At least someone got what I was saying, instead of regurgitating more partisan drivel.
I agree with you wholeheartedly as well.
Silly person, Bush was re-elected. That means he has a Mandate ™. That means he is already totally unaccountable. :rolleyes:
The war was right, and Bush has made no mistakes. It’s all covered under The Mandate ™. :rolleyes:
They lied? No surprise, since they lied about all the reason in the first place. Doesn’t matter, they can alter the facts any time they please. Anyone who calls them on it is just a librul partisan hack. See the Mandate ™. :rolleyes:
You may think I’m batshit insane, but my nose still works well enough to recognize bullshit 
Now are we agreeing or arguing? I lost track.