Over and over on these boards, when mentioning the prospect of peace, I have been told “But what about the 6,000 people?”
Folks.
They are dead. It is terrible. Trust me, pacifists feel the pain of their death just as strongly as anyone. We are shocked and hurt and scared and angry. But, as I have said, they are dead. Nothing we do can bring them back. No amount of bombing will revive them. More violence will not make this national pain go away. We cannot undo this event. It will never feel better. Now what we must do is move beyond that.
The actions we take must be about the future, not a past that we cannot alter. This cannot be about revenge. It cannot be about some sort of perverted memorial to the dead. It cannot be about collateral damage. It must be about the future security of the world. As must as we hurt, the 6,000 dead have little to do with that. They are sad and senseless deaths, ones that we must remember, and ones that we must leave behind us.
No matter how you think our problems might be solved, whether you are a friend of the olive branch or the sword, let us recognize that the future is in our hands. Stop dredging up the things which we can do nothing about and start focusing on what we can change.
EVEN SVEN – First of all, forgive my asperity. I have nothing against you, but this just bugs me.
No shit. :rolleyes: We all thought they were only mostly dead.
We are. Specifically we are attempting to move towards justice, not just for the dead but for the living – their families and friends and every single citizen of this nation that was attacked on 9/11. We are also attempting to insure that such a thing can never happen again.
Well, which is it? Do we remember them, or do we leave them behind us? Because I have no fucking intention of leaving them behind me. I did not personally know any individual who was killed on 9/11, but I nevertheless feel that my life was revocably changed that day and I will never be the same. I will never forget them. This is not about revenge, it is about justice. Those two words do not mean the same thing. It is about self-defense – making sure that individuals who would seek to use airliners as flying bombs and who would indiscriminately kill thousands of people know that they will pay for it, and think twice before doing it again. It is about removing the scourge of terror from the world, not just for the dead, but for the living as well. And not just for the living, but also for the dead.
Unbelievable. This tragedy is only five weeks old. Five weeks is time enough to give to 6000 dead, huh? Because if we’re still talking about it, still gasping with grief and horror that it ever took place, still mourning the dead, still seeking justice on their behalf – well, then we’re dregding up the past.
Bullshit. Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit. We can do something about it. We can seek justice.
I am no fan of bombing. I am no fan of war. But I am less of a fan of “peace at any price” and nevermind the thousands – thousands – who died.
Way to go, Jodi, give him hell. Forget asperity, give him some indignation, damnit! even sven, you’re incredible, and not in a good way, either. It’s all in the past? Forget those who died, that’s all in the past? I’m just flabbergasted at such idiocy. I started reading your dumb post at 5:22 pm, and since that’s four minutes ago I can now just forget everything you said, right? After all, it’s all in the PAST!
God, do you not even have a clue that past events impact our future? Do you not see that forgetting past events, and the deaths of so many thousands, is a horrendeous dishonor to their lives? And to ours? Why am I even asking you?
I hope you take a better tack in addressing whatever point you thought you were making, 'cause your first try failed miserably.
If the point even sven was making was that “eye for an eye” justice gets you nowhere in the long run except even more dead people, then I agree with her. But, I don’t see another way. My own pacifist’s heart broke on Sept. 11, because I had hoped that human beings were finally growing up, and getting past things like wars and killing each other wholesale. I realized when so many people on American soil died that there was no way that the US could let it go without retribution, for many valid reasons. So the US retaliates. And then Middle Easterners have even more reason to hate the US. Then they perform more terrorist acts. Then the US retaliates more. I don’t see a way for any country to be “the bigger person” and stop this pendulum of violence. If human race can’t grow up and get past our violent tendencies and we manage to wipe ourselves out on the Earth, I guess we will deserve it.
I have faith in what my government is doing is right. But, then again, if they mess up, ill probably be the first to condemn them. HA!
That makes you inherantly human…LOL
Ok, about Pacifism and letting the loss of lives go?
I say if you take the ride down those 83 flights and roll onto the streets like some of those people did and walk away. Come tell me how you will feel about it then. Pacifism is just much of a threat to our society as not. Talk is cheap, it takes money to buy rum. Revenge isnt what its all about, it is about survival and if you dont know the difference thats your problem. We have no choice, I get sick of hearing we do, its not YOUR game , its not this country who wanted this…maybe a trip to Bin Ladens Holy Land and few days on the streets there with all the preotesting would have you whistling “god Bless America” and chanting lets get those evil bastards under your breath all the way back on your flight home.
Fair enough, we can’t bring back the bead, but we can try to prevent further and future recurrences of the same.
I agree with the OP (except for the part about letting go and “leaving behind” those that are lost) that we can not change the past, I don’t think anyone would challenge that.
The actions we take now and will continue to take in the coming days, months and years are about preventing the deaths of innocents from the hand of those that have killed in the past. To argue that we should do nothing but try to talk it out is the same as saying that a serial killer, say Dahmer or Son of Sam or someone, would be better off having been conversed with than imprisoned.
No, we have to take action to stop those that want only to kill, maim and devastate. These are people that produce nothing, create nothing, enhance nothing. They only destroy. They need to be removed from power, from any area where they might cause damage. If this means they might die, that is the mold they cast for themselves, it is the line they themselves draw when they seek to kill others. For or against the death penalty, when a persons sole purpose in life is to kill others and bring about terror, I can not believe that you would think that their demise or incarceration for life would be a bad thing. Should they die, well, it will not be a “senseless death,” it would have the benefit of preventing so many others deaths. But feel free to “remember, and … leave [them] behind…”
It is not revenge, it is precaution and it is safety. Not just for America, but for any nation, any group of people, that might be the target of terror.
I agree with thinksnow. This action b ythe US has to be done to insure at least this group and their supporters will not have the ability to do it again.
But aww thinksnow, now how I’m going to do without the bead?
.)