Buying/Owning a gun and hunting. . .

If someone was to base their entire home security plan on a handgun, or buy a handgun for the sole purpose of defending the home and nothing else, that probably wouldn’t be the best choice. But the great thing about handguns is that they are multi-purpose tools. Not only are the effective at short ranges for defensive purposes, inside and outside the home, but they are also great fun to shoot. The .357 I mentioned earlier can be amazingly accurate and with .38 are mild to shoot.

I don’t like the shotgun-is-ultimate-home-defense thing. You still have to practice to be effective, and I don’t enjoy the things. Also the layout of your dwelling might not be conducive to long guns.

Of course, the OP didn’t ask about defense. But if you have a gun at some point you might consider protecting your family with it.

Well after thanksgiving a few of my friends just stayed the weekend at a buddies house and designated yesterday “Man-Day”. This day began with a steak, eggs, and potatoes breakfast cooked by our gorgeous honorary-man-for-the-weekend female friend who stayed with us. Breakfast was followed by, safety lecture, picking out guns from my friends pretty vast arsenal, loading magazines, then going to the shooting range!

I am still really interested in buying a handgun and a hunting firearm, but being exposed to guns for the first time yesterday got me incredibly interested in firearms all together.

At the range I shot a Sig Hauer 220, Colt MK VI 1911, Dranganov Sniper Rifle, AR-15, M1 Garand, and a Shotgun. The difference between weapons was immense! Shooting was not at all what I expected it to be. At first I was incredibly intimidated, shots are WAY louder than I had anticipated, and the recoil much larger and stronger (except for the AR-15 which was incredibly easy). Shooting at the range was great! We left the range, going back to the house to disassemble and clean all of the guns, which was very interesting for me. For such advanced technology and power out put, the guns were pretty simple machines of maybe 20 pieces when fully disassembled…to add to the man-day theme we did this while watching Scarface.

When all is said and done I am WAY more interested now that I’ve experienced shooting, actually handled a firearm, and saw the huge range of guns available. Now to make arrangements for purchase/instruction/enjoyment!

Any other advice or insight is still very much appreciated! I’ll probably be posting a bit more later about how shooting went for the Sig Hauer and the Colt with some accompanying questions. Thanks guys!

Let us talk about rifles from the ground up for a bit, starting at the least dangerous end: the stock. (This is all generalized and will apply to most all longarms you can buy, including rifles and shotguns)

A good stock, i.e. one that is adjusted to your height and length of arm, is important. Getting a custom-fitted stock or trying as many rifles as necessary until you find one that suits you, lying down, is important. My first rifle - which I inherited from my father, a .308 Mauser - had a stock that was just a few centimetres off. Reloading was a pain and it took me far longer to get a shot lined up after the first than it should. I don’t know the english term for it, but the Norwegian term translates to “gunsmith.” (“børsemaker”) Some gun shops or hunting shops might offer this and most will at least know someone that can do it. A clerk that scoffs at you asking is quite probably a moron.

The reloading system is mostly preferance, with some technical details that will grow more important to you as you get along. I prefer a five-point bolt action reload. In other words; draw the slide up to unlock it, draw it back to eject the casing, insert new bullet, push the slide in front to set the bullet and push it down to lock it again. I’ve had several hundred hours of practice and usually keep a fresh bullet between my ring finger and little finger, so re-loading is pretty smooth, without the complications of an auto-loader. This is, as far as my knowledge extends, a pretty normal system for a hunting rifle.

The trigger system is also a matter of preferance. I prefer a medium, smooth pull. In other words, I need to put 2lbs of pressure on the trigger and pull it evenly backwards. I don’t get the “click” feeling, where the trigger jumps, but hit an unmarked spot during my pull where the rifle “suddenly” fires. If you’re not used to it, it can be a bit disconcerting at first, but I prefer it to click-triggers because it tends to interfere less with my aim. (I’m not very strong - my father loves his “click” trigger, because it gives him a very tangible feeling of “now I’m going to fire the weapon.” My father is rather a lot stronger than me and has a very strong grip, so he compensates.) Pull usually scales from 1-3 lbs on rifle triggers.

Then there’s the body of the rifle itself. Someone else can probably give more information on this regarding the advantages of metal bodies or wooden bodies, but you should at least consider whether or not you prefer a “pistol grip” to stabilize your hold on the rifle while aiming. Some do, some don’t. I personally do, but it hasn’t had any effect on my precision as far as I’ve been able to tell, just my comfort holding the rifle. (In case you’ve not encountered the “pistol grip” term as it relates to rifles, it’s the “handle” behind the trigger guard in this picture. In my experience, you either have it and don’t care, or you absolutely hate it.

Then there’s the scope. Scopes are also matters of preferance, what ranges you would like to shoot at and how much money you want to spend. My dad recently got an awesome deal on two excellent 6x-24x (magnification) hunting scopes from the US (but produced in China.) ($1200 for 2, while their value over here would be around $2800 for 1) and I got one, but I haven’t had the occasion to test it yet. Some things to be on the lookout for:

  • Magnification (4x-12x is pretty standard according to my experiences, but I’ll admit that it’s not very broad. Magnification in rifle scope terms is relative to the naked eye. Drawbacks with higher magnification is that A: it eats light, B: if the magnification is too high, the rifle will appear to be too responsive and C: At higher magnifications, you’ll have big problems leading an animal.)

  • Light strength of the scope/lenses. A bigger diameter of the lens will let more light in, which will benefit you the higher the magnification, but since you for hunting large game will hardly ever need to go beyond 4x or 6x, this will be adding money for little good result.

  • Reticles (crosshairs to you, I expect). Thin reticles are better for target shooting, but if you intend to go hunting with the same rifle, I’d advise you to get a thick enough reticle in your scope that you can easily pick it up even while aiming through or towards heavy underbrush. Duplex reticles will give you half and half - thick lines towards the edge of the scope with thinner lines towards the centre, giving you both the advantage of being easily able to find them in dark circumstances as well as a more exact aiming point in dark lighting. You can also look into “mil dot” scopes, if you fancy the trade-off of doing on-the-fly math to assist your aiming.

. Choosing a rifle scope is not easy. I’d suggest going very basic for your first and stepping it up from there.

I’ll leave the calibres to more knowledgeable posters, since I’ve only really shot with .308 and .300. There’s a lot of good information on this already posted.

(I’m sorry if I’m fuzzing with the technical names in the above - I know all the terminology from Norwegian and I’m kinda transliterating back to English.)

I’ll also leave handguns to the others, but I would weigh in with a heavy preferance for revolvers for target shooting. Also, start light. .38 perhaps.

As for gun safety rules, these are the Ten Commandments my father initiated me to when I turned 14; they may differantiate from what other posters have grown up with, so take it for what it’s worth.

  1. All guns are ALWAYS loaded.
  2. You did not just check that your gun is not loaded.
  3. The safety catch does NOT work.
  4. There’s a kindergarden behind that target.
  5. The Police will come knocking on your door tonight. They will pay intense attention to your weapon, licenses and safety legislation observation.
  6. The Police does not want you to own a weapon.
  7. If you shoot an animal in the gut, you will be forced to sit down with it and look it in the eyes while it dies.
  8. Corollary to 7: If you shoot an animal in the gut, you will be the singular person dragging it back to base, skinning and gutting it.
  9. Additional corollary to 7&8: If you shoot an animal in the gut, you will eat the meat.
  10. Your gun WILL explode in your face. Your extreme paranoia is warranted.

I can explain a bit about rule 1 and 4. Rule 1 was uttered during my first target shooting, where I forgot - in the midst of all the other stuff - to hold my recently fired rifle on my shoulder, pointing downfield with the bolt pulled open so the instructor could certify that it was unloaded and secured. He also commented, looking straight in my eyes and with a very level voice: “If you point a gun in my direction, I WILL shoot you first.”"

Rule 4 has to do with backdrops. Bullets can travel for several kilometres, so you HAVE to know where the bullet would land if you miss your intended target. Firing against a target highlighted on a ridge, i.e. with open sky as a backdrop, would get me violently beaten - even if I hit. I would then be made to crawl to where the bullet landed to assure the others it did not hit property or people. I would then be expelled - permanently - from my hunting group. Yes, this is hyperbolé, but I would seriously contemplate doing the above to anyone in my hunting group who did it. And I would certainly never hunt with them again.

Rule number 5 and 6 probably also deserves a note - my father doesn’t hate or even dislike neither the police nor the weapon laws. His intent was to impress upon me the necessity of keeping my licenses à jour as well as following the rules and laws for keeping weapons in my house. (In Norway, the weapon and a critical part of the weapon such as the slide house for a rifle, has to be kept at seperate places under lock and key. The ammunition has to be kept at a seperate place to the main body of the weapon, also under lock and key. A steel weapon closet is the preferred solution for the ammunition. My father got a two-part closet for the body and ammunition, with seperate keys for each part, but has the critical part locked in a safe in his bedroom.)

On a side note, you might want to start hunting by going bird hunting with a shotgun. It’s a lot safer, more enjoyable and requires less training and preparation than large game hunting. It’s also far less expensive both for quotas and will provide a far richer target environment.

Oh, while I’ve got the subject bouncing around in my head, some general rules of thumb for shooting a gun:

  • The harder you hold your gun, the more the subconscious movements of your body affects your aim. Think of it as holding a pencil.
  • Pull or squeeze, don’t twitch, the trigger. Hold your hand out at arm’s length and twitch your fingers into a fist while aiming down your arms. Notice how much this affects the direction your hand/gun is pointing in. Think about how much this would be amplified at range. Now try it again while slowly squeezing your fingers together.
  • Holding your breath will temporarily steady your aim, particularly at the outbreath, but remember to breathe deeply in and out to settle yourself after you’ve fired.
  • While shooting a shotgun, remember to KEEP leading the target while you’re squeezing the trigger. Your goal is to keep a 1:1 ratio of lead to compensate for the target’s movement, not to get ahead and shoot it while it passes through the area you’re aiming at. This is hard and takes time and practice. (99% of the shots I see go wrong at the skeetshooting range are placed behind the target.)
  • Remember to keep the stock firmly pressed against your shoulder. The term for the bruises you’ll give yourself if there’s any air between the stock and your shoulder is “Idiot Brands.”
  • Rest your cheek ON the rifle/shotgun while aiming. Your first instinct is to pull the head back when firing. This is wrong. Keep your eye open when firing.
  • You’re far more likely to hit under the target than above it. If in doubt, adjust upwards.

And remember the most important thing when shopping for firearms -
Buy one of each!

I’ve still been doing plenty of searching and have yet to find an online resource for shooting and handgun information that I find satisfactory. I enjoyed guntalk.tv but i quickly went through and exhausted their video catalog… are there any other similar sites or forums you all are aware of?

There’s been some excellent advice given so far, and I’d like to add a bit more of my own:

Don’t buy a handgun in a “weird” calibre. That means don’t get a handgun chambered for something besides .22LR, .38 Special, .357 Magnum, 9mm Parabellum, or .45ACP. Do not listen to anyone who tries to tell you that .40 S&W or .44-40 aren’t “weird” calibres; for the beginning shooter they fall into the “weird” category and should be avoided until you’re comfortable with handguns in general.

Handguns take a lot of practice to use effectively, and weird calibre ammo is either expensive or hard to get. If you never get to shoot your new gun because the ammo’s too expensive or your local gunshop never has any in stock, then your new gun is a metal paperweight waste of money sitting in your gun safe.

For your first handgun, if you wanted a revolver I would recommend either a Ruger, Taurus, or Smith & Wesson revolver in .357 Magnum, with a 5" barrel. They’re tough, versatile guns that are very easy to shoot and good guns for both beginner and experienced shooter.

If you were after a Semi-Auto I’d recommend a Taurus PT-101 in 9mm or a 9mm version of the M1911, depending what you’re comfortable with. If you have the money you won’t go wrong with a Browning High-Power or Sig P226 (both in 9mm Parabellum), either.
If you are OK with a bigger gun, the .45ACP M1911 gets so much press time and has so much fanboyism attached to it because it is a good, solid, reliable gun, but I’m not sure I’d suggest it as a “First Gun” for someone who was still new to shooting.

My interest is older military rifles and handguns so I can’t offer a lot of advice on a rifle, unless you want a Military Surplus one in which case we could be here for a while. :wink:

Then you are just the man I am looking for!

So I went shooting for my second time, this time my buddy and I brought a smattering of hand guns for me to try out and shoot. From this I have concluded, I am not a fan of double action pistols, that extra bit of weight on the beginning of the trigger pull werids me out and I cant shoot straight with it for beans, I am also not a fan of hammerless pistols, I like being able to see the hammer as cocked or not and just seeing it strike.

I have come to the conclusion I’d like a pistol in the .38 Special or .40 caliber range. The .45 was just a little too much for me too shoot very comfortably and accurately if I was to go to the range for a day with the weapon. I’m also looking for something somewhat compact as I’d like to be able to conceal carry the gun in the future, however I shot a S&W MP .40 Compact, and it was just a little too small. Something (physical size/weight wise) in between the S&W MP .40 and a Sig Sauer P220 would be ideal…

Any ideas out there from the peanut gallery as to what I could look into? Price isnt that big of an issue, as I’d rather get a good and reliable gun over a cheap “mleh” gun…though cheap is not bad :wink: I’ll also most likely be buying a used gun, so anything brand spanking new off the factory press probably wont work.

Also…

no, not more demands I just want to thank everyone you’ve been VERY helpful and a great source of information for me!:smiley:

Based on that, I’d recommend 9mm as your caliber. Unfortunately there are so many choices in 9 that I wouldn’t even know where to start. Sig makes a broad range of sizes, Ruger are kind of beefy and rarely good for concealment (although I’m a Ruger fan, they do have limitations), Glock are recommended by a lot of people and also come in a variety of sizes. I don’t like them, just because they don’t fit my hand right, so if I was looking at a polymer 9mm I’d give serious consideration to the Springfield XD.

If you really like the .40, most everyone makes the above mentioned handguns in that caliber as well. 9mm (in my opinion) would be a better start. Certainly powerful enough for self defense, but a little more fun and inexpensive to shoot (I haven’t priced either for a long time, so I could be wrong) and it seems that 9’s are generally higher capacity which is normally not much of a selling point but something to think about.

.40 isn’t all that hard to find around here, but nowhere near as prevalent as .45 & 9mm.

All that is for autos, of course. Not many single action .38/.357 revolvers out there, at least not many that are concealable. If you don’t like the DA trigger pull, you could just cock the thing with each shot (like I usually do, being an old SA guy).

Anything else I can do to muddy the waters? :slight_smile:

If I was buying today, I’d get a Springfield XD or a Sig P226.

Sounds like a 9mm is the way to go; it’s a popular calibre for a reason!

As for the rifle, I’m horribly biased and would suggest either a .303 calibre Lee-Enfield (The No. 4 Mk I or Mk II rifles are better for hunting but the SMLE has more character and is still extremely effective), or a Mosin-Nagant M91/30 in 7.62x54R.

Both rifles are sold, reliable, accurate, built like tanks, and ammunition for them is reasonably easy to get. The M91/30 is cheaper, but the Lee-Enfields hold more ammunition and have less felt recoil (IMHO)…

Yep. IMO, 9 mm is the ideal caliber for 90% of people. It has light recoil, is easy to shoot, and the ammo is fairly inexpensive. And as you mentioned, there are a large number of guns chambered for the 9 mm round. Too many, if you ask me.

Here’s something to think about: regardless of what gun you buy, at some point it will fail. (Or at least you should *assume *it will fail for the sake of discussion.) You have two choices at that point:

  1. Fix it yourself.
  2. Send it back to the factory.

I will *always *opt for #1… I *hate *the idea of sending a gun back to the factory when I can easily fix it myself. Some manufactures do not offer for sale all the spare parts for some of their guns, thereby forcing you to send it back to them when it breaks. :mad: I will not buy such a gun. One example is the Springfield XD. I think their XDs are pretty nice, but I would never buy one because every spare part is not available for purchase.

So when it comes to buying a handgun, I have a rule: I will not buy a handgun unless I can purchase 100% of the spare parts for it. As mentioned above, this is so I can repair the gun myself. It also allows me to stockpile spare parts. As far as I know, you can purchase 100% of the spare parts for only three lines of handguns:

  1. S&W M&Ps
  2. Glocks
  3. 1911s

There are SO many guns to choose from. Aside from going to the store and actually fitting them all (I plan to do this shortly anyway) is there any website or resource that allows easy comparison of pistols? I’ve been looking at each companies web site (Glock, Smith&Wesson, Colt, Sig Sauer, . . . .) but its difficult to do a “side-by-side” type comparison of the specs and all the gun-dealer websites that I’ve found seemed somewhat hokey to me. I want to search by sertain specifications and just narrow down the pistol I think I would like. . .Any idea on a website? Or anyone willing to talk/explain/advise in gruesome abnoxious detail about the bajillions of hand guns I could be choosing? Feel free to PM if up to the challenge :dubious:

You might try http://www.galleryofguns.com/ and click the “Gun Genie” button. It’s just stuff that Davidson’s carries, but it’ll get you some info as well as MSRP and price at some local shops

Try looking up the various guns on Wikipedia- each article usually has an infobox with that sort of information in it.

I know this is going to sound a bit unconventional, but in my personal and professional opinion, the “stats” and “techie specs” for a semi-auto handgun are largely irrelevant as long as it sits comfortably in your hand, is reliable, and is accurate enough for its intended use.

Most semi-auto pistols since 1900 are functionally identical (ie, if you can work one you can work them all), with only minor differences (some of the newer semi-autos are Double Action and have decocking levers so you can carry them with a live round up the spout if you so choose), but otherwise, I’d be looking at what feels right and not what looks best on paper/screen…

I used to shoot IPSC with 9mm (Beretta 92FS) its a great caliber to start with, fairly gentle on the wallet, especially when you are burning several boxes a weekend.

Taurus, although not one of the sexiest brand names last I heard ran lifetime warranties on their guns, I have a buddy that has been through 2-3 locking blocks over the years on his and ships it back, they fix it, he gets it back in like 2 weeks, no charge.

I’ve been taught those 4 rules since I was 5 years old. So minimum of 13 years. (I was taught that rule with my first BB gun.)

I can’t disagree more with this statement. (My emphasis.)

The 1911 is a popular gun, which depending on the person you ask is the ‘godliest gun ever invented.’

The .45 caliber has no notable ballistic advantage to the 9mm. Despite the fact that it’s a larger bullet, the ballistics do not necessarily indicate that it has better stopping power (for home defense - here’s hoping you never need one for that reason).
I recommend one of two guns to new shooters who are prepared to skip .22 calibers. the CZ 75, and the Glock 17 (or Glock 19, the difference is the grip and barrel length - so similar in fact as to take the same Magazines*). Both are 9mm, and both have their advantages.

The Glock an internal hammer (note the lack of hammer on the back of the slide) and a built in internal safety (in the trigger), meaning that lateral motion cannot depress the trigger. It has the downfall of having no external safety, however due to the fact that it’s “Double Action Only” (I’ll explain later) this isn’t a particularly notable downfall.

Glocks have an extremely great (and deserved) reputation for almost never breaking. Glock Torture Test. There are a variety of links from that Google that take you through a bunch of different (extreme) tests the glock has been through. One of them has 10,000+ rounds without cleaning, and no or few Jams, IIRC.

The CZ 75 is also a 9mm, but has an external hammer, and exterior Safety. The Safety can only be engaged when the hammer is in Single Action (often called “Cocked & Locked”). The CZ is one of the most reliable pistols on the market, after the Glock. The CZ also has an optional feature (attachment), in which you replace the slide and use a different magazine, changing from 9mm to .22, this saves shooters money in the long run (although it requires an additional 200-400 dollar initial investment, I believe).

Both of these guns hold 15 or more rounds (the Glock 17 holds 17 shots, the Glock 19 holds 15 shots with the flush magazine, and the CZ holds 15 shots). Both guns are also, quite often, rated as the top two Service Pistols in the world.

I am not bashing 1911’s, they’re alright guns in general, and they’re great for when they were built (1911). They were absolutely revolutionary at the time (I think?), but advances in technology and innovation have allowed for overall more reliable, easier to clean and easier to shoot guns (the latter two, of course are opinion). The 1911 holds 7 rounds.

Double Action: The Hammer has to be pulled from the forward position to the rear position before firing.

Single Action: The hammer is locked in the rear position, and all that is required is the trigger to be depressed, often with significantly less distance and difficulty than Double Action.

If you get your hands on a CZ 75 and a Glock 17, and both are uncomfortably large (which I have to say is an odd complaint, since I’ve seen petite women shoot them, and I’ve shot both since I was 9 years old), I am not really sure how to recommend, since I’ve never encountered a first time shooter with that complaint. The only shooters who I’ve ever heard that complaint from were those who were raised on Single Stack 1911’s.

*it should be noted while the Glock 19 can fit the Glock 17 magazines with a slight extrusion at the bottom, the Glock 19 magazines will not fit into the Glock 17, because the mag well is too long.

Also, Single Stack versus Double Stack. Both the CZ and Glock designs are “Double Stack,” that means staggered bullets (think 1 inch cylinders in a 1.5 inch box), versus the M1911’s Single Stack, which literally stacks the bullets directly on top of one another.

I cannot stress enough the importance of gun safety, and at least one gun safety course, preferably NRA instructed.

Oh yeah, well I’ve been shooting 1911 longer than you’ve been shooting, so I’m right. :wink:

1911’s fit me and I’m most comfortable and accurate with them. So to me they are. I can’t stand Glock, but I’m not going to bash them just because they’re shaped weird.

I don’t disagree that for many the 1911 is a great gun to shoot. And you may well have been shooting longer than me…

But until we go to the range and lay our toys out on the table, we’ll have to reserve judgment for who’s really right. :stuck_out_tongue:

The biggest complaint of the Glock is, in fact, the hand grip. Despite the fact that I’m not legally old enough to own my own hand gun, I’ve had a gun that was as much mine as my bed is since I was 9 years old, and I’d like to think I’m well versed on the subject.

What I didn’t include, and I should have, was an echo for the statement that Practice, Practice, Practice. You need a gun that you enjoy shooting (which you said, I should’ve echo’d that in my post but forgot), because if you’re not accurate with the gun, you’re just dangerous. Not to someone breaking into your house, but to yourself and to others.

The M1911 has evolved from being the GI-issue M1911A1 that your Great Grandad and Grandad (and maybe Dad) used during The War.

There are now a number of 9mm calibre M1911 handguns on the market, and there are double-stack M1911 handguns (Para-Ordnance, for example) out there too.

I like the M1911 design- to me, it’s the textbook example of “Getting it right the first time”- but lots of people don’t find it quite as comfortable. The grip on the Glock handguns just isn’t quite right for me- I can shoot with them, but they don’t feel like an extension of my hand the way an M1911 or a double-action revolver does.

FWIW, if I had the money, my dream handgun is a Mauser C96 “Red 9”. More realistically, I’d love a Sig P226; excellent gun, incredibly accurate, and bloody expensive. :wink: