Fine with me. Raise the collective IQ by several points in the process as an added benefit.
The problem with illegal immigration is that it supplies cheap semi-skilled, moderate to poorly educated, non English speaking labor.
LEGAL immigrants, despite the difficulties of the system that need to be addressed, usually do not fall into this category any more. They tend to be skilled workers, with a decent education, who can at a minimum understand, and muddle through in English; whatever the country or culture of the immigrant.
By just letting everyone in, you just shuffle the economic problems around the continent like a game of hot potato as the poor migrate to find employment; and the wealthy try to get away from the poor, or defend their communities from become ethnic ghettos.
What, that illigeal aliens are criminals?That’s not “faith” that’s fact, one that you refuse to confront.
There, there Frank, it’s not pointless. One of these days you’ll manage to make a post that’s on topic and factual, and then we can all discuss it. I know your inability to counter the obvious facts that I present is frustrating, but keep trying. One of these days you’ll make a cogent point, I believe in you!
Come on everybody, let’s all clap for Frank, show him you believe he can do it! CLAP! CLAP! CLAP!
That has not been my experience in southern California, except for sometimes the cheap part. Mexican workers in my experience have been the hardest-working people I have ever seen, and are conscientious, good at what they do, speak English and are supporting families. I am happy to give them work if I can.
And as for this from RNATB-
Well, I haven’t found that to be true either, to the benefit of the federal gov’t. We had a woman working for us who I’m positive was here illegally, but she had a Social Security card with her name on it and so off we went, withholding and paying all applicable payroll taxes.
She will never file a tax return, and she will never get that money back- net gain for the US.
Becoming a citizen legally has become an arduous, torturous process. My BIL is now a citizen (Australian by birth, US by naturalization, and I think he has an EU passport as well) and his process was a nightmare. He isn’t a poor and poorly-educated immigrant- he holds a PhD in behavioral genetics, at the time he was teaching & running a lab at CA’s most respected public university, he had been here (legally) paying taxes and spending money for over a decade, and was married to a US citizen. Yet the cost to them in money, hours and aggravation almost made them change their minds and move somewhere else, just so they wouldn’t have to deal with the idiots that run immigration & naturalization. I don’t blame people for trying to get around the system- it’s a shitty, broken, useless system.
YMMV. In my area, (Central Florida) That has been the vast majority. I didn’t say that they weren’t hard working, conscientious, or didn’t have families to support. They do, and for the most part they work their tails off. However, here at least, they often are not up to standards in terms of their work skills, though it doesn’t take long to get them there. Most do not have what would qualify as a high school education, and nearly 60% do not speak any English, or speak it extremely poorly and with little to no written comprehension. This goes for all the groups in my area, regardless of their country of origin.
I live in an immigrant neighborhood, and it can be extremely frustrating trying to be friendly to people who look at any person NOT of their group with outright suspicion and occasional surly hostility. The correction to these problems is to ensure that everyone has access to the programs to help them adapt to life in the US, programs that are by and large funded by the taxes that THEY ARE NOT PAYING. I agree that the system is broken, but simply allowing people to come in, use services and send the money off back to the homeland certainly isn’t the way to do things.
If I sound bitter, I have good reason. I AM that guy who can’t get a job because of the over availability of cheap immigrant labor. Because they’ve all settled in this area, I become lower on the hiring list since I’m not fluent in Spanish/Portuguese/Hindi/Creole. I speak enough to get by as a tourist in all of those, and understand enough Spanish to handle mundane matters. I’ve made an effort, and my reward has been unemployment because the illegals work cheap and prefer to deal with one of their own when out shopping.
Although it was understandably predictable, we’ve hijacked this thread into a discussion of immigration policies.
To go back to the OP, why should a retailer pay for a day laborer shelter? If you go to that store and buy a lawn mower, there’s a hidden cost you’re paying for the shelter, and you derive nothing from it. Ditto for all the rest of the homeowners, DIYers, and contractors who purchase from the store but don’t use day laborers. Why not require the supporters of day laborer programs to fund that which they promote? Heck, I’d favor a sign in the store advising all patrons that XYZCoalition has paid for the day laborer shelter located outside. If you’d like to learn more or contribute to our cause, call xxx-xxx-xxxx or visit www. xxx. com . That way, those who are sympathetic to the cause can voluntarily support it.
They could just as easily pass a law prohibiting the gathering of a certian number of people in a given place without a permit. It’s a tenuous law, but it has worked. Or, they could pass a law saying that in order to be an independent contractor such as the day laborer technically is, that you must register with the city and pay the appropriate fees. In both cases it costs the city (through them the people) and the business nothing, and may actually bring in a little scratch. This seems to me just another capitulation to the wave of illegal immigrants (read: criminals) that we’re forced, out of some blind devotion to political correctness, to endure, just because our grandparents did the same thing another world ago. No, this is tiresome crap from spineless leaders, and completely unnecessary.
Home Depot should be obliged, by their own policy, NOT by local regulation, to do only option 1 if they so choose. The authority having jurisdiction (AHJ) in this case is shirking their responsibility to the taxpaying public by not preventing the gatherings in the first place. This is the root of the problem. While some posit that the immigration status of the hangers-out is not necessairly relevant, I disagree. If there were no illegal immigrants, I doubt with sincerity that this would be an issue at all.
Thing is, I don’t think anyone is arguing that point. The system desperately needs an overhaul, however, does that mean that we ignore the established laws in order to circumvent the process, or do we get into the process and make the necessary changes?
I don’t see this happening any time soon, regardless of who is in the White House n November- do you?
It seems a bit odd to have a horrific system, do nothing to fix it, and then complain when people don’t use it. The illegal immigrants I have known live in fear of deportation and going back to crushing poverty and terrible crime. If there was a decent way to “get legal,” they would do it in a heartbeat.
Imagine being afraid that someone might rear-end you at a stoplight, or that you might be mugged or robbed, or that the bank could be robbed while you’re in line- any of these things could get you arrested and deported, just for being there. Believe me, they would rather be legal residents.
I never said we should have completely open borders. I’m saying we should have a general policy of allowing people to immigrate to this country. Historically, it’s been a good policy that has benefitted the country. And historically, there have been opponents at every step of the way, saying that “this group” isn’t like the immigrants of the past - those were good immigrants who came here for good reasons and were our ancestors. The current bunch - fill in the blank with Germans, Italians, Irish, Polish, Swedes, Chinese, Japanese, Pakistanis, Koreans, Mexicans - aren’t like that, they’re never going to fit in and become Americans. But everytime the anti-immigrants have been proven wrong and the immigrants assilimated like past groups did. So based on the fact that every past wave of Nativism has been wrong, I’m going to assume this current wave is too.
It’s good to see that, in order to defend everything that makes America great, you are willing to pass laws that fly in the face of everything America supposedly stands for.
“Too many people standing around talking? Make it illegal!”
Blah, blah, blah. You know the intent of my statement, stable the high horse, Mary. Municipalities require assembly permits and have laws and rules about assembly. These aren’t just people hanging out in a public park, these folks are, technically, trespassers to whom the city not only gives a free pass, but requires the victim of the trespassing to build them a hut in which to trespass, provide refreshments to ensure the trespassers are properly hydrated and give them a place to make doodie and tinkle. It’s fucking stupid.
They aren’t trespassers. If they were, HD would call the cops and have them removed for loitering. It’s not particularly difficult to do.
They don’t do this for the same reason that they have a return policy- customers like it that way, and HD likes to keep their customers happy.
Since they are deriving a clear benefit, making them accountable for some of the costs of this benefit- currently borne by innocent third parties- is, dare I say it… logical. Fair, even.
You can parse everything in a childish manner as you did above and make it sound unfair, but that doesn’t make you right.
Huh? I acknowledged you don’t support open borders. And gave you my reasoning and you’ve not responded to any of it. If you’re genuinely not interested, fine. But I’ll just point out that there were laws for people coming her a hundred years ago. And the laws were followed. If you tried to sneak in, or didn’t have a place to go, or had certain illnesses, back on the boat you went.
You’re nativist nonsense is a straw man. Most people, advocate immigration, and would even like to see it increased, as well as the process be made more streamlined. But that’s for LEGAL immigrants. I have no problem with LEGAL immigrants, the ones that follow our laws. We’re talking about the ILLEGAL kind, hose who knowingly and intentionally sneak in, cheat the system and spit on us in the process.
Now, you say you don’t want open borders. We’ve established that. But what do you want? How many people? How easy to get here? Who decides? And, mot important to the discussion, what do you do when people do sneak in?
As previously mentioned, it’s effectively impossible for a Mexican to immigrate to the US legally. Promises of “a streamlined process” are all very well, but I imagine they’re cold comfort to people whose children are hungry and barefoot today.
And while there is no doubt a small number of people that are as you describe, they are still knowingly breaking our laws. These people are not our problem. There are poor people around the world, and we help more than any other nation. But we cannot simply allow people to come sneaking in willy-nilly. Come in legally or don’t come in. If you can’t and you are poor, petition your own government. As I’ve said before, when it comes to Mexico specifically, the best thing that could happen for everyone is revolution against a system that runs on corruption.
My response to your reasoning is that I disagree with it. I thought I had been clear. I’m not saying people should immigrate here illegally but I am saying the laws should be changed so most of them can immigrate here legally. You say you have no problem with legal immigrants - that’s disingenous because there is no general legal procedure for immigrants from places like Mexico.
I’ve explained the reasons why I think open migration is a good idea. You haven’t said yet why you think it isn’t except to keep repeating it should be illegal because it’s against the law. Repeal the law and that obstacle is gone; do you have any others?
As for nativism - it always seems to be waiting one step behind any discussion of immigration. When people start talking about “those people” they’re going to be suspected. When they start saying we need laws to make it illegal for Mexicans to work or walk the streets or drive a car or speak Spanish, it’s easy to surmise they just don’t like Mexicans.
Yes, they are trespassing. Unless you’re a customer of, a vendor to, or an employee of HD, you have no business being on their property.
Please provide some cite for your claim that HD customers want day laborers hanging around in the lot. I do not believe that the article cited in the OP makes that claim, but if you have some other credible source, please let us all see it.
What is the clear benefit being derived by HD? What innocent third party is currently bearing the cost?
Let’s try a comparison. Across the county, at some truck stops, you will find persons we can call Night Laborers. They offer sexual services to truckers for a fee.
While their services are certainly welcomed by some drivers, the fact remains that what they do is illegal. Were we to apply the same logic and reasoning that you and a few others have offered, then Flying J and other truck stop chain operators should be forced to provide shelters for the comfort and convenience of prostitutes.
Nope, you’re right, but what makes me right and this situation wrong is the fact that people (illegal or not) are essentially parking their asses on private property and the owner of the property is forced to eat shit not once but twice, first by knowing full well that if he (they) DID call the cops and have these dudes booted out every day, the activist circus would roll into town, bringing all the bad press with them, second that not only do they have to let them stay, they have to make them comfortable. The people who are TRULY benefitting from the labors of these folks is the contractors who USE them, make THEM pay for the huts, you’d watch that labor pool dry up like a riverbed in august. As far as I’m concerned, both the citizens of the community AND HD are innocent in this deal. The state is batshit.
Unless you are more forthright with information, this will be my last post to you. I’ve explained reasoning in detail, with an offer to answer any specific questions you may have. You have now said that I have not explained myself. That is incorrect. Again, if something in my long post was unclear, I’m happy to clarify it.
Conversely, I’ve asked you specific questions, which you have ignored. All you do is throw out generalizations about “easier” and now contradict yourself by saying that you think open immigration is a good idea. (See bolding.)
So, please 1) clarify your position regarding “open borders” and 2) answer the specific questions I asked you in my previous post. If you can’t or won’t do so I will have to conclude that you are debating in good faith or you have no idea what the fuck you are talking about. Of course, I reserve the right to change that last “or” to an “and”.
As far as nativism, you’re simply insisting that it is a necessary condition for being against illegal immigration. In which case you may find these links to be of interest: