California recall debate

Great Debates
1

I was surprised to not see a thread started concerning the election debate that took place on Wednesday in California. Granted, this is probably of limited interest to the many dopers outside of California but I was interested to see what others who saw it had to say.

News Account

Personally, I thought it may have helped Gray Davis. There was a lot of name calling and insulting. The participants had a very hard time staying on topic and remaining within their time constraints. Here are my humble observations that I made concerning each candidate after wathing.

Cruz Bustamonte - Seems to have too many links to special interest groups, notably the indian casinos and illegal immigrants. While seemingly well-informed, there is just something I don’t trust about him. I definitely can’t agree with him on the subjec of illegal immigrants being issued drivers licenses.

Arnold Shwarzenegger - Too many jokes and one liners and not enough substance. He has some interesting ideas but doesn’t seem to have a comprehensive plan, just ideas. Also, his links to special interest groups leave me a little uneasy.

Paul McClintock - Way too conservative for me.

Arianna Huffingtom - Raised some good points and definitely made the debates more interesting. Still, she doesn’t stand a chance. I did enjoy the cartoons at her website, especially “special interest brothel”. You can check them out here

Peter Camejo - I actually liked his ideas the best. No personal attacks, he just stated his position. Obviously, a green party candidate isn’t going to be elected though.
A couple of interesting things that I noted: One is that Davis wasn’t mentioned all that much. Arnold and Paul didn’t really question each other at all, although both being from the same party, I kind of expected that. I do wonder if they are going to split the republican vote, giving Bustamonte the edge. Many are urging McClintock to bow out for precicely this reason but as of yet, he has refused.

I really wonder how much this hurt Gray Davis. I heard many people on talk radio this morning say that they are less-decided on who to vote for, based on the debate. I’m not convinced at all that the recall is going to be successful.

As far as my vote, to be honest, I have no friggin idea. :slight_smile:

*mods, I realize that this could probably be put under IMHO. Due to the political nature, I figured it would possibly end up a debate though. Feel free to move if appropriate. *

2

I don’t agree. I think he’s being jovial on purpose because it reassures voters they aren’t getting a blank-faced suit. He’s trying to make voters comfortable with him, rather than make them believe in his ideas.

3

I can see your point, smiling bandit. I thought his sparring and quips back and forth, mainly with Huffington, were distracting though. The others seemed to debate just fine without the personal insults. They focused on attacking the ideas, not the person.

Personally, I think Arnold is a cool guy and I think many people feel the same way. I think his heart is in the right place and he definitely cares about California. People are aware that he isn’t a born and raised politician and that is appealing to many. But I also think his ideas, the specifics on what he is going to do if he gets elected are important too. I didn’t feel that I heard enough of a plan to determine if he was the best candidate. Just my opinion, of course.

4

I too was surprised and I was going to start a thread my self. Keeping your format.

Cruz Bustamonte - I thought he performed poorly at times, though I liked his presence in some instances. Oddly I think his answer on Illegal immigrants was the better part of his performance. It was obvious he was sincere. On the Driver licences, I’ve more or less leaned towards allowing it for the very reasons he pointed out, at least they can then get car insurance and lower my rates.

Arnold Shwarzenegger - Though he was jovial and relaxed, I never got the sense he gave a straight answer to anything. It seemed to me he came in with a set canned responses and a steering guide to get back to his talking points. The only time I think he was expansive was when tried to take credit for Healthy Families which he had fuck all to do with. He did do a good job sparring with Huffington and the other candidates.

Paul McClintock (I thought it was Bill) - Number two vote getter form most sincere. Too much Cut Taxes, Cut Taxes, cut taxes, oh yeah and I’m also pro-guns and anti-abortion, did I mention we should cut taxes?

Arianna Huffington - I think she’s getting out and helped Cruz by going on the attack against Arnold, and the Bush Administration. Impressive in her ability to point out Arnolds avoidance of questions. Further she pointed out how California is mirroring the nation at large.

Peter Camejo - Most Sincere. I actually liked a lot of what he had to say, and if I thought he stood a chance in hell of winning he’d get my vote. He was the most polite, he stayed away from personal attacks, and generally presented a good case. His closing statement was ramblining and ill thought out. It was like he didn’t know he be asked to make one.

Overall, I thought this was the best debate I’d sseen for any office.

I too think it mostly helped Grey Davis. Incidentally I’m a Black moderate democrat who intends to vote no on the Recall.

5

I watched the whole thing and was pretty disappointed, too. I liked McClintock and although there is a strong bias against him on this thread so far, I hope there is at least the recogntion that he actually offered concrete plans of ways to reduce the defecit. I guess one hears what one wants, but I didn’t hear him mention much about tax cuts (except that car tax, which most people are against and is a huge issue here in CA). Camejo also had lots of concrete ideas, but mostly bad. Raise taxes, raise taxes, raise taxes.

I’d be willing to bet that Camejo said “raise taxes” at least 3 times for every time McClintock said “cut taxes”. Funny how people tend not to notice that…

But Mack can’t win in CA-- he’s too conservative for the state. Arnold was OK, but didn’t have much to say in terms of actual plans. I think he’d do fine as governor, since he’s smart, practical, and pretty principled. But I don’t like this whole recall thing and will probably vote No on recall and yes on Arnold.

6

Ok, I feel like a moron. It is neither Paul (as I stated) or Bill (as Stuffy suggested) McClintock. It is Tom. How embarrassing. Maybe that is good indicator of his name recognition among voters though. :slight_smile:

7

I would have to say that we are in agreement here. As a democrat, I would like to vote for Bustamonte out of principle but I just can’t. I don’t think he is the guy for the job. I also feel that I should vote for someone who stands a chance of winning and the percentage of people that vote for Peter Camejo or Arianna Huffington isn’t even going to make it into double digits. I think the GOP is going to persuade McClintock to drop out. That leaves Arnold.

And I have never liked the idea of a recall to begin with. Davis won the election, no matter how much Daryl Issa and the republicans wishes it weren’t so. So I will vote no on the recall.

8

BTW, here’s my thumbnail analysis of the Candidates:

Arnold: I’m on the people’s side. And I’m funny.

McClintock: Cut spending, cut spending, cut spending.

Camejo: Raise taxes on the rich, raise taxes on the rich, raise taxes on the rich

Huffington: Bush is bad.

Bustamante: I’m above it all. I just love to see Republicans fight amongst themselves.
Best one-liner. From Arnold (directed at Cuz, I think):

I’ve signed checks on the front side-- you only know how to sign them on the back side.

9

You lost me a bit. Are you voting for Arnold? I actually think Cruz will win if Mack doesn’t exit.

I don’t think he will. He has a reputation for making decisions strictly on principle and political expediency be damned.

10

John Mace You’re probably right maybe the mantra was cut spending, either way it was one dimensional. I think the major problem with his cut, cut, cut, is that a lot of things the State has budgeted are there by mandate. Oh and you’re right on Camejo too, but you had to admire that “It’s just four words thing”.

Tom it is.

11

It might be one-D, but this whole recall was started over a one-D issue: a huge bugit deficit that seemed to appear out of nowhere. Dealing with that issue is the key aspect of the recall. I’d say that Camejo and McClintock are really the only ones with a plan to to close the deficit. If you think it should be fixed by raising taxes, you should vote for Camejo. If you think it should be fixed by cutting spending, vote for McClintock (or Arnold, if you trust him to do the kind of things McClintock talks about).

12

Yeah, I was surprised too. Well, now we have a thread.

My question is, did they have to make the debate such a circus? Geez, they could have at least disappointed people’s expectations by having a little decorum. I didn’t like that moderator at all; he did a pretty crappy job of keeping the candidates on topic. At times he seemed to be fueling the flames more than anything else. They should have given him switches to turn off people’s mics if need be.

I’ll probably vote for him out of principal because I see this recall as an attempted power-grab by the Republicans. But I agree that he didn’t exactly bowl me over. I like his idea of a 2-stage vehicle license fee and a tax increase for the wealthiest 5%, though - Hell, why shouldn’t the rich folks bail out the state? BTW, his assertion that the top 5% pay less tax than the bottom income level seemed to go unchallenged - is that an accurate statement?

I liked how he for the most part didn’t lower himself to the level of petty bickering that Arnold and Arianna were engaging in, but at the same time I thought he was a little too soft-spoken, almost lackadaisical at times.

IMO he came off as very aggressive and cocky, almost like the characters he has played in movies. He should have toned it down a bit and not tried to interrupt and talk over the other candidates so much. He did surprise me by seeming pretty informed on a lot of issues. I thought it was pretty ironic, though, when he vehemently protested that he should not be judged by the actions of Bush and the Republican party, but then turned right back around and criticized Bustamante for things that his party have done. A couple times he tried to blame Cruz for things that Cruz had voted against, and then loudly talked over him when he tried to respond. That’s just poor etiquette.

Yeah, he’ll never win in California.

I kind of thought she came off as a flake. She couldn’t stay on topic; practically everything she said was non-sequiturs or personal insults. I also think she’s a little unrealistic. She made great points about the need for government reform, but what’s she going to do if she gets in office, counting on all these reforms to balance the budget, and then inevitably discovering that it’s easier said than done?

I agree, but the Green Party is just too far out in left field to be a serious contender.

13

My take on the candidates:

Bustamante: sounded too much like a politician, way too smooth. Nothing I can put a finger on, so I won’t complain too much if he wins. His attempted end-run around fund-raising rules irks me though.

Arnold: closest to myself politically, he came off as glib and superficial. What’s with all of his movie references? I’ll rapidly grow sick of this style if this is what he’ll be like as governor.

McClintock: sounds competent and straight-forward. Too bad I don’t like his social agenda. Definitely a no-go.

Camejo: also competent sounding. Too bad I don’t like his economics. And doesn’t have a chance at winning it. I would give a careful look if he was closer to the top.

Arianna: I really like a lot of what she says, but comes off as too whiny. Probably feeling desparate because of low poll rankings.

My background: I’m new to CA (recently from Boston) so I don’t have any big insight into CA politics yet. Politically I’m a socially liberal, economically conservative Republican. I’m voting No on the Recall (Davis won fairly; he deserves the chance to sink or swim again), Arnold or no one for Governor, definitely No on Prop 53 (say no to constitutional micromanagement), Yes on Prop 54 (on principle, even if it’s currently impractical).

14

Pleonast:

I’m also from Boston, though been in CA for a long time. As I said above, I will also vote no on recall, then most likely yes on Arnold. Same as you on the Propositions, too.

Think more about voting for someone. If you vote for no one, you are throwing your vote away. If you think Arnold is closest to you politicallly, I don’t see how you can even consider Cruz or Camejo. Both those guys are all about raising taxes.

15

John Mace, I’m more concerned about budget deficits than taxes. I waver between voting for socially-agreeable and fiscally-agreeable candidates. It’s rare that I’m very happy with any candidate. And I’m used to throwing my vote away. :slight_smile:

16

I understand. But as the saying goes, you miss every ball you don’t swing at.:slight_smile:

Did anyone think the moderator was biased towards Arnold? To me, he seemed to favor the actor in terms of giving him the floor first and making sure he was kept in the thick of things. I, too, wish he had an on/off switch for each microphone to prevent obivous interruptions. Not sure the candidates would’ve agreed ot that feature, though.

17

Sorry to have lost you with my ramblings. :slight_smile:

Yes, I will be voting for Arnold and I will be voting no on the recall. I sure hope that Bustamonte doesn’t win. But McClintock shows no signs of dropping out which, to me, is sheer arrogance. He doesn’t stand a chance but refuses to see it and will probably screw Arnold’s chances in the process. If that occurs though, I think it is going to seriously harm any further political aspirations that McClintock has.

(geez, these candidates have long last names. What a pain in the ass to type.)

18

I saw Arnold interviewed by Hannity last night and he was actually very good. When he was interviewed last week by O’Reilly, he basically spent 30 minutes saying nothing.

It’s hard to believe that McClintock could be so unconcerned about his future in the Republican party, but a lot of political analysts sure seem to think he is. And he keeps saying over and over again that he won’t get out. At this point he’s almost damned if does and damned if he doesn’t. A lot of people will never forgive him if he stays in, but he may never be able to live with himself if he exits.

Maybe he’ll luck out and Arnold will actuall win. For his sake, I hope so. I actually like the guy and would hate to see him banished.

19

I read this morning that Arnold lost points in the debate with women, in his attacks on Huffington. If true it’s not a good sign for him.

20

It is extremely important for people to understand that it is not an either/or vote. You vote for whether you want the recall or not, AND you vote for who you want to win IF the recall passes anyway.

I think a whole lot of people are going to fuck this up.